Hi
Can anyone advise on the absolute safest, most foolproof way of cloning/copying an existing Windows 7 volume onto either the same drive, or a separate drive, with a view to creating a robust dual boot envorinment?
I've tried this before and had boot issues afterwards, so I'd be grateful for any advice on:
1. Is it better to clone onto a seperate drive, or a new partition on the same drive or does it not matter?
2. What is the best software to do this with - Paragon, Ghost, Acronis are the ones I'm aware of, which clone volumes and in some cases offer boot manager functionality?
3. Can anyone tell me step by step how they would do this, what advanced settings are important, and critically, how I can avoid creating an environment where I have too identical volumes and MBR's which causes all manner of boot problems?
4. Do the experts consider it safer to use Windows 7's own multi-boot abilities to manage booting, or is a 3rd partry boot manager preferred?
Many many thanks in advance. I've no doubt this information would be helpful for others also, as it's hard to find a definitive guide on this, at least from what I can make out.
Jules
Can anyone advise on the absolute safest, most foolproof way of cloning/copying an existing Windows 7 volume onto either the same drive, or a separate drive, with a view to creating a robust dual boot envorinment?
I've tried this before and had boot issues afterwards, so I'd be grateful for any advice on:
1. Is it better to clone onto a seperate drive, or a new partition on the same drive or does it not matter?
2. What is the best software to do this with - Paragon, Ghost, Acronis are the ones I'm aware of, which clone volumes and in some cases offer boot manager functionality?
3. Can anyone tell me step by step how they would do this, what advanced settings are important, and critically, how I can avoid creating an environment where I have too identical volumes and MBR's which causes all manner of boot problems?
4. Do the experts consider it safer to use Windows 7's own multi-boot abilities to manage booting, or is a 3rd partry boot manager preferred?
Many many thanks in advance. I've no doubt this information would be helpful for others also, as it's hard to find a definitive guide on this, at least from what I can make out.
Jules
Hello again.
To start, it is always preferable whenever possible to use the BIOS to "manage" a dual boot, have a look at the info below for some ideas how to go about that.
The way I would suggest is to purchase a good program like Paragon 11 Home and just start learning how to use it, that's how I started with it.
Partition Manager 11 Personal
To start, it is always preferable whenever possible to use the BIOS to "manage" a dual boot, have a look at the info below for some ideas how to go about that.
The way I would suggest is to purchase a good program like Paragon 11 Home and just start learning how to use it, that's how I started with it.
Partition Manager 11 Personal
�� Information
The easiest way to do away with boot issues between separate Operating Systems (OS) is to use the BIOS one time boot menu to select which OS to boot at system startup, each motherboard has an individual hot-key to tap during system start-up to access this menu.
If you have 2 separate Hard Disk Drives (HDD) and have one OS installed to one HDD and you want to install another OS to the second HDD, disconnect the HDD with the first OS installed on it and leave only the HDD you want to install the second OS to connected.
Just be sure not to change where the original HDD SATA cable was connected, it has to be re-connected to the exact same port to avoid boot issues.
Install the second OS to the connected HDD and when complete and the system is booting good, power down and reconnect the first HDD with the first OS on it.
This way the OSs will boot independently of each other and there will be no boot conflicts between the 2 separate OSs to have to sort later.
Then set the BIOS to boot the HDD / OS you want as default and if you want to start the other (new) OS you use the BIOS one-time boot menu to select that HDD / OS to start when the PC is started.
What was found here for setting up a working dual boot with an image of the host/boot drive restored to the second was problematic when using the built in option for creating full images. The solution was to create an image with the help of Acronis and restoring that to the second identical drive.
Both WD and Seagate provide their own free version of the Acronis Disk Director suite where you have the option for direct cloning or restoring an image onto a second drive. The cloning takes twice as long and will see problems if you add a new entry into the host drive's BCD store for a boot option.
The direct restoration however allows the use of the EacyBCD program for adding the entry in for the second drive. This eliminates the need to press the assigned F key used for bringing up the boot device menu and setting the default OS as well.
Both WD and Seagate provide their own free version of the Acronis Disk Director suite where you have the option for direct cloning or restoring an image onto a second drive. The cloning takes twice as long and will see problems if you add a new entry into the host drive's BCD store for a boot option.
The direct restoration however allows the use of the EacyBCD program for adding the entry in for the second drive. This eliminates the need to press the assigned F key used for bringing up the boot device menu and setting the default OS as well.
Many thanks for your help Bare Foot and Nighthawk.
I'll look into both those suggestions. I realize that the safest approach is to install Windows again from scratch, but if there was a safe way to use a clone of my existing OS, it would save me a good 4 days of additional installation work.
I'm getting the impression that alot of people on this forum are using Paragon, so I guess that's my best option for this kind of thing.
Thanks again for the help.
Jules
I'll look into both those suggestions. I realize that the safest approach is to install Windows again from scratch, but if there was a safe way to use a clone of my existing OS, it would save me a good 4 days of additional installation work.
I'm getting the impression that alot of people on this forum are using Paragon, so I guess that's my best option for this kind of thing.
Thanks again for the help.
Jules
You're welcome, glad we could help.
If you have a to be 3rd drive present you could create an image while booted in a working copy of 7 and see that stored on the to be 3rd drive. From that point with the original source drive unplugged you would simply boot live from the 7 dvd to see the "latest image recommended" option that would take you right to the same image just made and watch that restored to the second to new host/boot drive.
The full system option without need for any 3rd party software has been proven to be reliable after numerous images have been restored since the beginning of the year in fact on the old case before that went and sees monthly images on the replacement updated build.
The 100mb boot partition and everything you select to be included will be present once the image is restored the way it was when first made. Note that restoring an image first sees that the destination is wiped completely to prep the drive for the image to be unpacked on it. Backup any new files added between image creation and restoration. Backup Complete Computer - Create an Image Backup
The full system option without need for any 3rd party software has been proven to be reliable after numerous images have been restored since the beginning of the year in fact on the old case before that went and sees monthly images on the replacement updated build.
The 100mb boot partition and everything you select to be included will be present once the image is restored the way it was when first made. Note that restoring an image first sees that the destination is wiped completely to prep the drive for the image to be unpacked on it. Backup any new files added between image creation and restoration. Backup Complete Computer - Create an Image Backup
Hi Night Hawk
Many thanks for your response.
Just so I'm sure I've understood the methodology correctly:
1. Step 1, create backup image of OS volume (Drive 1) onto Drive 2.
2. Step 2, unplug Drive 1.
3. Step 3, boot using Win7 DVD and select to restore an image file.
4. Step 4, restore image from Drive 2 to Drive 3.
Do I then need to change the boot order in my Bios when I reconnect Drive 1? How will the system know which Win7 volume to boot from, and how do I then go about setting up a multi-boot environment so I can boot into Drive 3 for testing and Drive 1 for working?
Thanks again for your help, and sorry if I'm being a little dumb here.
Jules
Many thanks for your response.
Just so I'm sure I've understood the methodology correctly:
1. Step 1, create backup image of OS volume (Drive 1) onto Drive 2.
2. Step 2, unplug Drive 1.
3. Step 3, boot using Win7 DVD and select to restore an image file.
4. Step 4, restore image from Drive 2 to Drive 3.
Do I then need to change the boot order in my Bios when I reconnect Drive 1? How will the system know which Win7 volume to boot from, and how do I then go about setting up a multi-boot environment so I can boot into Drive 3 for testing and Drive 1 for working?
Thanks again for your help, and sorry if I'm being a little dumb here.
Jules
If you're using WD or Seagate on either of the drives involved, they have excellent free Acronis cloning apps you can download from their Support web page for your model. Then you can just clone one HD over to the other.
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Trailerman 
Hi Night Hawk
Many thanks for your response.
Just so I'm sure I've understood the methodology correctly:
1. Step 1, create backup image of OS volume (Drive 1) onto Drive 2.
2. Step 2, unplug Drive 1.
3. Step 3, boot using Win7 DVD and select to restore an image file.
4. Step 4, restore image from Drive 2 to Drive 3.
Do I then need to change the boot order in my Bios when I reconnect Drive 1? How will the system know which Win7 volume to boot from, and how do I then go about setting up a multi-boot environment so I can boot into Drive 3 for testing and Drive 1 for working?
Thanks again for your help, and sorry if I'm being a little dumb here.
Jules
Many thanks for your response.
Just so I'm sure I've understood the methodology correctly:
1. Step 1, create backup image of OS volume (Drive 1) onto Drive 2.
2. Step 2, unplug Drive 1.
3. Step 3, boot using Win7 DVD and select to restore an image file.
4. Step 4, restore image from Drive 2 to Drive 3.
Do I then need to change the boot order in my Bios when I reconnect Drive 1? How will the system know which Win7 volume to boot from, and how do I then go about setting up a multi-boot environment so I can boot into Drive 3 for testing and Drive 1 for working?
Thanks again for your help, and sorry if I'm being a little dumb here.
Jules
1) The first step is deciding which method you will use. 1) direct clone or 2) restore image made from original source drive(Drive #1)
2) The setup for seeing a dual boot of two drives gets involved to see the best actual working results. The host/boot was first backed up with the image option found in the CP>Backup & Restore for that drive. The second drive saw an image of the first drive made with Acronis.
Note the 3rd drive is the last since that will first need to hold the image to be restored on the new host/boot drive. Once the image is created you will need to shuffle drives around then seeing the source drive become the new storage drive for the Acronis image actually best made from the new host once the first image restored is found to be good and in working order.
3) Restore 7 made image to new host now plugged into sata port #1 and made default. Run everything from this drive to insure all is well. Download and install the EasyBCD 2.0.2 release and install but wait for adding new entry in for the to be test drive.
3) Once the new host drive is found good and old drive plugged in as 3rd drive Secondary sata master(note all three have to be same type for this to work) the next step is creating the second image with the Acronis suite(free or retail) and store image on old host drive.
(note restoring an image to a drive will mean anything present on the drive will be wiped completely. Be sure to back things up from the new host drive and later to be second drive before proceeding.)
4) The second drive to be the test drive cannot see the 7 made image restored there and added into the new host drive's boot loader since a new boot entry will result in trashing the host! The drive number and id the 7 backup tool uses creates a unigue id for that drive alone unlike Acronis which works independently.
The image made with Acronis will be suitable for the second drive when imaging the new host drive and seeing that image restored on the new Drive #2. If you decide to restore a 7 made image to the second drive you would also need to unplug the new host or first drive while doing so since that will effectively clone the first as if you saw a direct clone and made into a stand alone drive.
5) With the acronis image restored to the planned second test drive you can then create a new boot entry once the drive letter is assigned for it on the host drive's Disk Management tool there.
You have to that taken care and entry that drive letter to associate the new entry to that. If F in the DM you would choose F in the add new entry option from the dropdown list of available drive letters.
Once you have both drives running your regular image backup of the new host should be performed with the built-in system image option and stored on a separate drive. The test drive backup would be a second Acronis image of the host requiring the old drive or other 3rd drive designated to store two images.
That's a bit to take in at first since I'm working with 4 internal and one external drive here. When going to create any new image of the host drive later you will first need to remove the entry for the second test drive when planning to restore that to the second drive to avoid seeing the useless entry when going to load the test drive.
You will still want to keep the host drive as the default OS or without any entry for the second test opt for the boot device menu each time you plan to boot into the test drive without any option for that when starting the system. The idea of using the 7 option for creating images of the host and restoring them is the option to start the restoration while booted in Windows and watch as it restarts and runs the restoration tool loaded into memory without any need to boot from the 7 dvd or repair cd.
3rd party programs like Acronis will require the use of a live recovery cd for restoring an image to the host drive while secondary drives can be restored while still booted in the host drive''s own copy of 7 there. You can be doing other things while Acronis restores the latest image to the second drive without any system restart making that the ideal option.
Later when having the entry for the test drive added in the host BCD you simply select that from the boot options or pressing the designated F key for the boot device options menu you boot into the test drive then seeing an updated image restored.
In fact while posting this reply the image just made of the host with Acronis here is being restored to the second. The captures attached here will show how that looks.
Night Hawk - thanks so much for taking the time to go into so much detail.
Let me digest everything you've written and then figure out the best way of doing this at my end. I'm happy to buy Acronis and use that, and would prefer to work on a partition level, rather than a drive level where possible, as I don't have multiple identical drives in the system. I just need to try and figure out how that would work.
Greg - I'm sure you're right that Acronis is probably the way to go. I have Seagaate and WD drives, but I'm also happy to buy the full version if it simplifies processes like this.
Many thanks again.
Jules
Let me digest everything you've written and then figure out the best way of doing this at my end. I'm happy to buy Acronis and use that, and would prefer to work on a partition level, rather than a drive level where possible, as I don't have multiple identical drives in the system. I just need to try and figure out how that would work.
Greg - I'm sure you're right that Acronis is probably the way to go. I have Seagaate and WD drives, but I'm also happy to buy the full version if it simplifies processes like this.
Many thanks again.
Jules
The method I used here to get a dual boot working was a trip to start with! This is why you would need to see a lengthy description.
If you go end going with the full version it will be universal for all makes. That's one advantage besides being the full featured version. One thing else Acronis can do is mount the image of C for example where you will see a second C drive in an explorer window. The icon will be different.
What that does is allow you to add or even remove files from an existing image in an incremental fashion. In other words you don't have to spend the time replacing an image just made due to new files being added which saves time.
Once you have cloned or imaged the new host you will have fun trying this out no matter how you do it for seeing the next drive imaged and added in as a dual boot. There's no doubt on that one!
If you go end going with the full version it will be universal for all makes. That's one advantage besides being the full featured version. One thing else Acronis can do is mount the image of C for example where you will see a second C drive in an explorer window. The icon will be different.
What that does is allow you to add or even remove files from an existing image in an incremental fashion. In other words you don't have to spend the time replacing an image just made due to new files being added which saves time.
Once you have cloned or imaged the new host you will have fun trying this out no matter how you do it for seeing the next drive imaged and added in as a dual boot. There's no doubt on that one!
There is no reason to buy Acronis since both Seagate and WD offer excellent free versions which willl allow you to either clone directly or transfer via image from one HD to the other.
�� Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker There is no reason to buy Acronis since both Seagate and WD offer excellent free versions which willl allow you to either clone directly or transfer via image from one HD to the other.
As for what was actually found to work the best overall the system image option already included in 7 and that's free! The use of Acronis to start with is for restoring an image made of the first and being to add that into the host install's BCD store without trashing the host.
In other words once the new host drive OSed by a direct clone or restored image made by the system image in 7 the drive is maintained with the built-in feature. A second image is made by Acronis to be restored to the to be second test drive.
The full version of Acronis was also found more reliable over the free version for this type of project. But whether or not someone buys the full version of any software that's still personal preference there.
The real task is making sure you make a new image of the host drive in the event the addition of the imaged test drive into the host boot loader ends up see the need to restore the host drive when that becomes unbootable. This is why two different methods have to be used.
If you want to copy your windows 7 OS & application environment to a new drive (for use on the same computer).
(1) MS image all desired partitions (if you have a system reserved it's automatically included) to an external HDD
(2) Put in the new drive (at least as big as the sum of the size of all partitions imaged) ALONE. Straight out of the bag if a new drive.
(3) Reimage - should boot straight away.
It's worked for me and others and couldn't be any simpler and quick.
I had the free (WD &) Seagate versions of Acronis to clone if needed. I didn't need it but cannot guarantee others the same success.
(1) MS image all desired partitions (if you have a system reserved it's automatically included) to an external HDD
(2) Put in the new drive (at least as big as the sum of the size of all partitions imaged) ALONE. Straight out of the bag if a new drive.
(3) Reimage - should boot straight away.
It's worked for me and others and couldn't be any simpler and quick.
I had the free (WD &) Seagate versions of Acronis to clone if needed. I didn't need it but cannot guarantee others the same success.
The problem being mentioned isn't simply restoring any image to one drive by itself but when trying to set up a dual boot with two separate drives where the second is seeing an image of the first restored there and then added in as a boot option to the first.
It was Trailerman who was interested in trying this type of project out on his own system there. Since that is involved however and goes into lengthy detail it would need a separate guide in order to cover the drawbacks from not following precise details as you go along in order to see working results.
As far as cloning the 7 installation over to a new drive or restoring an image created from it that's the basics regardless of method used. The direct clone option will work as well as restoring an image made with the system image option found in 7's "Control Panel>Backup & Restore". The host drive here was cloned to the second initially with the free WD version.
For adding the clone into the host boot loader afterwards? Disaster forcing the host drive to be restored when that was made unbootable with the second drive made the only OS. The same was seen when restoring an image made with the option in 7 to a second drive and then added in. Despite the host install being set as default the second drive became the default as well neutralizing the first drive's 7 there forcing another restoration.
Solution as previously mentioned: First the free WD version but by that time the full version was already installed and simply found more reliable from being the full version saw a new image of the host created and restored to the second drive. When the new entry was added in for that "Success Story"! Both drives were independently bootable while configured in a dual boot at the same time.
Previously this idea had been tested out with the RCs a year ago but not to the extent for seeing the second solely used as a test drive for other then 7 at the time. Note a few of those early beta and RC setups in the few images still found.
It was Trailerman who was interested in trying this type of project out on his own system there. Since that is involved however and goes into lengthy detail it would need a separate guide in order to cover the drawbacks from not following precise details as you go along in order to see working results.
As far as cloning the 7 installation over to a new drive or restoring an image created from it that's the basics regardless of method used. The direct clone option will work as well as restoring an image made with the system image option found in 7's "Control Panel>Backup & Restore". The host drive here was cloned to the second initially with the free WD version.
For adding the clone into the host boot loader afterwards? Disaster forcing the host drive to be restored when that was made unbootable with the second drive made the only OS. The same was seen when restoring an image made with the option in 7 to a second drive and then added in. Despite the host install being set as default the second drive became the default as well neutralizing the first drive's 7 there forcing another restoration.
Solution as previously mentioned: First the free WD version but by that time the full version was already installed and simply found more reliable from being the full version saw a new image of the host created and restored to the second drive. When the new entry was added in for that "Success Story"! Both drives were independently bootable while configured in a dual boot at the same time.
Previously this idea had been tested out with the RCs a year ago but not to the extent for seeing the second solely used as a test drive for other then 7 at the time. Note a few of those early beta and RC setups in the few images still found.
Be sure to set the cloning or imaging app to copy over the MBR with the image.
Once you clone or image any HD over to another if it doesn't start up when booted as first HD to boot in BIOS, or using one-time BIOS BOot Menu key, then unplug all other HD's, boot the Win7 DVD Repair console, click through to Recovery Tools list to run Startup Repair up to 3 separate times with reboots until Win7 starts up.
Startup Repair - Run 3 Separate Times
It may be necessary to mark Win7 active if it has somehow not been marked as such during cloning. Partition - Mark as Active
Once you clone or image any HD over to another if it doesn't start up when booted as first HD to boot in BIOS, or using one-time BIOS BOot Menu key, then unplug all other HD's, boot the Win7 DVD Repair console, click through to Recovery Tools list to run Startup Repair up to 3 separate times with reboots until Win7 starts up.
Startup Repair - Run 3 Separate Times
It may be necessary to mark Win7 active if it has somehow not been marked as such during cloning. Partition - Mark as Active
Generally you will see check boxes for the mbr, 100mb system reserved, and main partition(s) on the drive you plan to clone or make an image of. If all goes well from the start you should set to go! But there's also the likelihood of a mishap you have to consider since are never any 100% guarantees.
One example of a mishap was just seen when going to restore an image of the Vista install for a dual boot back in June. The first attempt saw the second drive simply turned into unallocated drive space.
The second effort saw Vista once again running but the IE 9 Beta install for the 32bit version failed repeatedly indicating a problem despite the 35+updates since June being downloaded and installed.
A 3rd effort was just seen to see if it will go on this time around before a fast quick install of the 32bit 7 in order to run the 32bit since the 64bit went on and ran without issues of any type on the restored image of the host just seen there.
Too often the best results are seen with a clean install and restoration of a backup with the Windows Easy Transfer tool once you have all your programs back on but installed fresh when going to add a new drive in to server as the host/boot/main OS drive. And it's not always the fault of the program used but knowing that you have to be prepared just in case.
One example of a mishap was just seen when going to restore an image of the Vista install for a dual boot back in June. The first attempt saw the second drive simply turned into unallocated drive space.
The second effort saw Vista once again running but the IE 9 Beta install for the 32bit version failed repeatedly indicating a problem despite the 35+updates since June being downloaded and installed.A 3rd effort was just seen to see if it will go on this time around before a fast quick install of the 32bit 7 in order to run the 32bit since the 64bit went on and ran without issues of any type on the restored image of the host just seen there.
Too often the best results are seen with a clean install and restoration of a backup with the Windows Easy Transfer tool once you have all your programs back on but installed fresh when going to add a new drive in to server as the host/boot/main OS drive. And it's not always the fault of the program used but knowing that you have to be prepared just in case.
Again - thanks for all the feedback and help.
Just one thing I'm not fully clear on which is mentioned a couple of times in the posts above - copying the MBR when creating an image and then restoring to the new drive. I was under the impression that copying the MBR from one drive to another drive is likely to cause problems, because you then have two different drives with identical MBR's and the system doesn't know which to boot into.
In fact this was the very issue that I think I had when I first posted to this forum, after my initial attempt to clone my Windows 7 volume:
http://www.sevenforums.com/crashes-d...ightmares.html
This is basically the issue I am trying to avoid. Creating and restoring the image itself is very straight forward, it's doing it in such a way that I have a properly thought out and stable boot environment which enables safe multi-booting that I am still a little concerned about.
Again, thank you so much for all your help.
Jules
Just one thing I'm not fully clear on which is mentioned a couple of times in the posts above - copying the MBR when creating an image and then restoring to the new drive. I was under the impression that copying the MBR from one drive to another drive is likely to cause problems, because you then have two different drives with identical MBR's and the system doesn't know which to boot into.
In fact this was the very issue that I think I had when I first posted to this forum, after my initial attempt to clone my Windows 7 volume:
http://www.sevenforums.com/crashes-d...ightmares.html
This is basically the issue I am trying to avoid. Creating and restoring the image itself is very straight forward, it's doing it in such a way that I have a properly thought out and stable boot environment which enables safe multi-booting that I am still a little concerned about.
Again, thank you so much for all your help.
Jules
If you're cloning onto separate HD's to (wisely) Dual Boot via the BIOS, then you want MBR cloned intact to each HD.
If you're cloning onto separate partitions on the same HD, only clone the MBR to first partition. Then when it starts up, Add the second partition OS using EasyBCD 2.0.
If you're cloning onto separate partitions on the same HD, only clone the MBR to first partition. Then when it starts up, Add the second partition OS using EasyBCD 2.0.
Thanks Greg - all clear.
I guess that means you're advising against using Win7's multi-boot capabilities in that case. If I understand, you would launch Boot Setup (bios) on startup, and enable only the drive you want to use as a bootable device.
If that's the case then presumably all I need to do is create backup image of Drive 1 OS volume (with MBR) on Drive 2, restore to Drive 3 OS partition, reboot and change boot options in bios.
Doesn't seem like there's any need to unplug/replug drives in this scenario or am I missing something?
Many thanks
Jules
I guess that means you're advising against using Win7's multi-boot capabilities in that case. If I understand, you would launch Boot Setup (bios) on startup, and enable only the drive you want to use as a bootable device.
If that's the case then presumably all I need to do is create backup image of Drive 1 OS volume (with MBR) on Drive 2, restore to Drive 3 OS partition, reboot and change boot options in bios.
Doesn't seem like there's any need to unplug/replug drives in this scenario or am I missing something?
Many thanks
Jules
I always unplug all uninvolved drives to avoid unexpected problems.
You shouldn't have to change the BIOS boot order each time. Set the preferred HD to boot first, then if you want to boot another HD or device use the one-time BIOS Boot menu key given on first screen. Every computer has one:
Asus - F8
HP/Compaq - Esc
Sony - F2
Acer - F12
Gateway - F10 or F12
eMachnes - F10
Toshiba - F12
Dell - F12
IBM/Lenovo - the blue Thinkvantage button, or OneKey button next to Power button.
If you don't like this arrangement after trying it, then to create a Windows Dual Boot install EasyBCD 2.0 to Win7 to add the other OS to a Windows-managed Dual Boot menu.
You shouldn't have to change the BIOS boot order each time. Set the preferred HD to boot first, then if you want to boot another HD or device use the one-time BIOS Boot menu key given on first screen. Every computer has one:
Asus - F8
HP/Compaq - Esc
Sony - F2
Acer - F12
Gateway - F10 or F12
eMachnes - F10
Toshiba - F12
Dell - F12
IBM/Lenovo - the blue Thinkvantage button, or OneKey button next to Power button.
If you don't like this arrangement after trying it, then to create a Windows Dual Boot install EasyBCD 2.0 to Win7 to add the other OS to a Windows-managed Dual Boot menu.
Understood Greg. Will hopefully give this a shot tomorrow.
Thansk again.
Jules
Thansk again.
Jules
Assuming this is a custom build and not any premanufactured system you would need to look at the post screen with the logo screen option disabled in the advanced section in the bios setup or user manual for the board in order to see which F key is used.
On a custom case Asus boards would typically the F8 key used at post while it would be the F12 for a Gigabyte board. The bios used whether Award, Phoenix, AMI will determine that.
Here's the first few steps to follow in order to get things right.
1) Clone direct with Acronis to the new host drive or use the system image option in Windows for the original drive. Backup Complete Computer - Create an Image Backup
Note the intended second drive will need to be used to store a full image there for restoration afterwards since you can't restore an image to the drive you are storing it on.
2) Replace the original as first drive with new drive in first sata port and set as default boot device. Note you can often simply switch the drive end of each data cable to reassign ports without much fuss to simply things.
If you created a full image you then slap a quick install of 7 on the new host without worry of activation or going through the full install but long enough to restore the image made. System Image Recovery
You first want to see the new drive in working order before the next step. Whether a direct clone or restored image option was used the new drive should see 7 running strong without problems. The second drive will be the temp storage drive until the new main is up and running well.
3)Once the full image is made or first drive is cloned and the new host is the present host drive the original drive is replugged in as the 3rd drive. If you elect to use the fast install to restore an image through Windows following the guide the new host will need to be Drive #1 for the Windows installer to place the boot files and mbr info there.
Booting live from the 7 dvd is the other option that will see the new host listed as Disk 0 as well where it will also detect the latest image. If you boot live from the 7 dvd to restore an image leave the new 3rd unplugged since the repair tools will detect that installation if you haven't added a fast 7 install on the new host. This will insure the image is restored to the intended drive even without a temp install of 7.
4) With the new host/boot drive running well you can now use the original drive to store an image made to protect the new host in case of any need to replace the cloned or reimaging of 7 there. The builtin tool has been found the most reliable for restoring host drives!
Since you couldn't store an image on the first drive from the start or opted for a direct clone you now have another use for that drive. You may even elect to reformat it in order to store the host image and if planning to try restoring a working image to the second the image made with Acronis.
5)Once the first four steps are met you create a full disk image using a 3rd party program for restoration on the to be second drive and store that on the original. From there you use the recovery options in Acronis verifying which is the "destination drive" by looking at the drive indicator which lists the drives installed.
One tip here is labeling each drive ahead of time as the 7 host/boot, test drive, and new storage drive in order to avoid confusion when using clicking on the listing for the destination drive(then 2nd HD) before clicking on the "proceed" button. You will also see the "0 sector", "100mb(if originally seen)", and the main 7 primary listed on the next screen.
Acronis will list things a bit differently then the builtin system image and recovery options listing the "0" sector item or mbr while the 7 tool shows checked off items for the 100mb and C primary.
6) With the main drive running normally you may want a fresh single primary seen on the second drive rather then one left "raw". A quick partition and format will allow Acronis to see the destination drive when going to restore that image onto the new 2nd drive. You will still see the warning about any previous files and data being overwritten and can ignore it since you won't have anything there to worry about yet.
7)Lastly is the actual test of the second drive to see if the image went on well where you can test each drive in progression using the boot device menu anyways. This test will insure the second drive can boot on it's own and show the restored image was successful when seeing 7 running there.
Once each drive is found working it's now time to decide on the simple addition of the boot entry for E, F, G depending on which free drive letter you set for the second drive in the host drive's DM tool you add the new entry for that as a boot option. Note you can still select either drive from the boot device menu at any time with or without the boot option seen when starting up.
The one thing to know right from the start here however is that setting up a dual boot with two separately created drive images was experimental and not a "work always" proven method. What was found was that restoring a single image made by only one program or with the backup option in 7 could not be configured as a dual boot.
The use of the backup feature already included in 7 is competent to backup the host drive while it took an image created by Acronis to see results when restored to a second drive. Paragon, Reflect, Ghost, and other programs might also see results while not having been used for testing this type of dual booting.
In any case the first thing to remember is to maintain the new host drive since that is your main system drive as far as OS is concerned while the rest is "at your own risk"! Be sure to have a suitable place to back things upto beforehand in order to have a "disaster recovery plan" inplace.
On a custom case Asus boards would typically the F8 key used at post while it would be the F12 for a Gigabyte board. The bios used whether Award, Phoenix, AMI will determine that.
Here's the first few steps to follow in order to get things right.
1) Clone direct with Acronis to the new host drive or use the system image option in Windows for the original drive. Backup Complete Computer - Create an Image Backup
Note the intended second drive will need to be used to store a full image there for restoration afterwards since you can't restore an image to the drive you are storing it on.
2) Replace the original as first drive with new drive in first sata port and set as default boot device. Note you can often simply switch the drive end of each data cable to reassign ports without much fuss to simply things.
If you created a full image you then slap a quick install of 7 on the new host without worry of activation or going through the full install but long enough to restore the image made. System Image Recovery
You first want to see the new drive in working order before the next step. Whether a direct clone or restored image option was used the new drive should see 7 running strong without problems. The second drive will be the temp storage drive until the new main is up and running well.
3)Once the full image is made or first drive is cloned and the new host is the present host drive the original drive is replugged in as the 3rd drive. If you elect to use the fast install to restore an image through Windows following the guide the new host will need to be Drive #1 for the Windows installer to place the boot files and mbr info there.
Booting live from the 7 dvd is the other option that will see the new host listed as Disk 0 as well where it will also detect the latest image. If you boot live from the 7 dvd to restore an image leave the new 3rd unplugged since the repair tools will detect that installation if you haven't added a fast 7 install on the new host. This will insure the image is restored to the intended drive even without a temp install of 7.
4) With the new host/boot drive running well you can now use the original drive to store an image made to protect the new host in case of any need to replace the cloned or reimaging of 7 there. The builtin tool has been found the most reliable for restoring host drives!
Since you couldn't store an image on the first drive from the start or opted for a direct clone you now have another use for that drive. You may even elect to reformat it in order to store the host image and if planning to try restoring a working image to the second the image made with Acronis.
5)Once the first four steps are met you create a full disk image using a 3rd party program for restoration on the to be second drive and store that on the original. From there you use the recovery options in Acronis verifying which is the "destination drive" by looking at the drive indicator which lists the drives installed.
One tip here is labeling each drive ahead of time as the 7 host/boot, test drive, and new storage drive in order to avoid confusion when using clicking on the listing for the destination drive(then 2nd HD) before clicking on the "proceed" button. You will also see the "0 sector", "100mb(if originally seen)", and the main 7 primary listed on the next screen.
Acronis will list things a bit differently then the builtin system image and recovery options listing the "0" sector item or mbr while the 7 tool shows checked off items for the 100mb and C primary.
6) With the main drive running normally you may want a fresh single primary seen on the second drive rather then one left "raw". A quick partition and format will allow Acronis to see the destination drive when going to restore that image onto the new 2nd drive. You will still see the warning about any previous files and data being overwritten and can ignore it since you won't have anything there to worry about yet.
7)Lastly is the actual test of the second drive to see if the image went on well where you can test each drive in progression using the boot device menu anyways. This test will insure the second drive can boot on it's own and show the restored image was successful when seeing 7 running there.
Once each drive is found working it's now time to decide on the simple addition of the boot entry for E, F, G depending on which free drive letter you set for the second drive in the host drive's DM tool you add the new entry for that as a boot option. Note you can still select either drive from the boot device menu at any time with or without the boot option seen when starting up.
The one thing to know right from the start here however is that setting up a dual boot with two separately created drive images was experimental and not a "work always" proven method. What was found was that restoring a single image made by only one program or with the backup option in 7 could not be configured as a dual boot.
The use of the backup feature already included in 7 is competent to backup the host drive while it took an image created by Acronis to see results when restored to a second drive. Paragon, Reflect, Ghost, and other programs might also see results while not having been used for testing this type of dual booting.
In any case the first thing to remember is to maintain the new host drive since that is your main system drive as far as OS is concerned while the rest is "at your own risk"! Be sure to have a suitable place to back things upto beforehand in order to have a "disaster recovery plan" inplace.
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Trailerman Hi
Can anyone advise on the absolute safest, most foolproof way of cloning/copying an existing Windows 7 volume onto either the same drive, or a separate drive, with a view to creating a robust dual boot envorinment?
I've tried this before and had boot issues afterwards, so I'd be grateful for any advice on:
1. Is it better to clone onto a seperate drive, or a new partition on the same drive or does it not matter?
2. What is the best software to do this with - Paragon, Ghost, Acronis are the ones I'm aware of, which clone volumes and in some cases offer boot manager functionality?
3. Can anyone tell me step by step how they would do this, what advanced settings are important, and critically, how I can avoid creating an environment where I have too identical volumes and MBR's which causes all manner of boot problems?
4. Do the experts consider it safer to use Windows 7's own multi-boot abilities to manage booting, or is a 3rd partry boot manager preferred?
Many many thanks in advance. I've no doubt this information would be helpful for others also, as it's hard to find a definitive guide on this, at least from what I can make out.
Jules
Can anyone advise on the absolute safest, most foolproof way of cloning/copying an existing Windows 7 volume onto either the same drive, or a separate drive, with a view to creating a robust dual boot envorinment?
I've tried this before and had boot issues afterwards, so I'd be grateful for any advice on:
1. Is it better to clone onto a seperate drive, or a new partition on the same drive or does it not matter?
2. What is the best software to do this with - Paragon, Ghost, Acronis are the ones I'm aware of, which clone volumes and in some cases offer boot manager functionality?
3. Can anyone tell me step by step how they would do this, what advanced settings are important, and critically, how I can avoid creating an environment where I have too identical volumes and MBR's which causes all manner of boot problems?
4. Do the experts consider it safer to use Windows 7's own multi-boot abilities to manage booting, or is a 3rd partry boot manager preferred?
Many many thanks in advance. I've no doubt this information would be helpful for others also, as it's hard to find a definitive guide on this, at least from what I can make out.
Jules
Everything else in my cloned dual boot configuration is independent, and the drives/partitions show ups as you would expect. However, if I have system restore set on the "backup" clone, it will see the restore points from the other boot, and eventually after enough boots to the backup, the restore points on the system disk will disappear. I examined the shadow copies on both with vssadmin and all seemed in order for an independent boot. And I had, on each, restore points set for only C:.
I ended up turning of restore points and disabling the VSS service on the "backup" clone. All seems well but I sure would like to understand what was happening.
- Gene
Gene: did you try booting independently via BIOS rather than interlocking the HD's with Windows-managed Dual Boot? Has solved this prob for me.
Yeah, no problem if I boot independently through the BIOS with separate system partitions on each drive rather than both off the system partition of the main drive. But I have to go in the BIOS and disable the first drive to boot the second independently. I sync files between the two so that is not workable.
Gene
Gene
Every computer or mobo has a one-time BIOS Boot Menu key which when tapped at bootup will override the first boot device. Dell's is F12. Have you tried that?
Too often many have not even heard of it or they may have that option on some premade systems. For some you have to go into the bios setup to set which type as well as which drive from a separate list screen there will be default not having a one time option. 
I've run into that at times! As far as dual boots the problems were seen as far as XP and Vista dual boot when the previous version was released since Vista had to be hidden from XP. In 7 that problem is no longer seen.
(with the full system image option who needs restore points anyways???! even without the drive space. Mainly novices!)
I've run into that at times! As far as dual boots the problems were seen as far as XP and Vista dual boot when the previous version was released since Vista had to be hidden from XP. In 7 that problem is no longer seen.
(with the full system image option who needs restore points anyways???!
even without the drive space. Mainly novices!) �� Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker Every computer or mobo has a one-time BIOS Boot Menu key which when tapped at bootup will override the first boot device. Dell's is F12. Have you tried that?
When clicking the hard drive item you should be seeing a list of HDs when more then one installed. Or the bios used on that model board is limited as some have been found.
When looking at the dual boot guides here at SF you'll note that they point right to using the EasyBCD program which has seen extensive testing not only by those here but all over in fact. And when you run into limited boot options....
which always stinks of course that will simplify things once everything is set correctly.
When looking at the dual boot guides here at SF you'll note that they point right to using the EasyBCD program which has seen extensive testing not only by those here but all over in fact. And when you run into limited boot options....
which always stinks of course that will simplify things once everything is set correctly. If I were to setup a dual boot for extended use I would use the BIOS managed option.
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Night Hawk When clicking the hard drive item you should be seeing a list of HDs when more then one installed. Or the bios used on that model board is limited as some have been found.
When looking at the dual boot guides here at SF you'll note that they point right to using the EasyBCD program which has seen extensive testing not only by those here but all over in fact. And when you run into limited boot options.... which always stinks of course that will simplify things once everything is set correctly.
When looking at the dual boot guides here at SF you'll note that they point right to using the EasyBCD program which has seen extensive testing not only by those here but all over in fact. And when you run into limited boot options....
which always stinks of course that will simplify things once everything is set correctly.
To get them I have to disable the other drive in the BIOS.My next computer will not be a DELL - I will build my own
�� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO �� Quote: Originally Posted by Night Hawk When clicking the hard drive item you should be seeing a list of HDs when more then one installed. Or the bios used on that model board is limited as some have been found.
When looking at the dual boot guides here at SF you'll note that they point right to using the EasyBCD program which has seen extensive testing not only by those here but all over in fact. And when you run into limited boot options.... which always stinks of course that will simplify things once everything is set correctly.
When looking at the dual boot guides here at SF you'll note that they point right to using the EasyBCD program which has seen extensive testing not only by those here but all over in fact. And when you run into limited boot options....
which always stinks of course that will simplify things once everything is set correctly. To get them I have to disable the other drive in the BIOS.My next computer will not be a DELL - I will build my own
Does BIOS setup show the 2 sata drives?
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Bare Foot Kid If I were to setup a dual boot for extended use I would use the BIOS managed option.
Now as far as not seeing a list to choose which drive to boot from, GeneO, you first select the type of drive which should see a second screen or popup list of drives. This depends on which bios program is being used by the manufacturer. Award, Phoenix, AMI, or other.
Different makes of boards seeing Award for example will have the F8 drive up all drives on one main screen while another will see the list of catagories first. WHen selecting the hard drive item you should then see all hard drives listed if all are working, the data cables are good, and those are plugged in fully to show up at post or in the bios setup there as mjf pointed out.
�� Quote: Originally Posted by mjf �� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO �� Quote: Originally Posted by Night Hawk When clicking the hard drive item you should be seeing a list of HDs when more then one installed. Or the bios used on that model board is limited as some have been found.
When looking at the dual boot guides here at SF you'll note that they point right to using the EasyBCD program which has seen extensive testing not only by those here but all over in fact. And when you run into limited boot options.... which always stinks of course that will simplify things once everything is set correctly.
When looking at the dual boot guides here at SF you'll note that they point right to using the EasyBCD program which has seen extensive testing not only by those here but all over in fact. And when you run into limited boot options....
which always stinks of course that will simplify things once everything is set correctly. To get them I have to disable the other drive in the BIOS.My next computer will not be a DELL - I will build my own
Does BIOS setup show the 2 sata drives?
Both drives show up in the BIOS, but only onboard sata drive appears in the BIOS boot sequence menu. There is an entry for a add-on hard drive, but no device is recognized.
Since these are clones of each other, they have the same volume-ID, but that is a windows level not BIOS so I don't think that matters.
Probably just because it is a lobotomized DELL BIOS.
A wimpy Dell anything is not any big surprize! 
It sounds like the bios they used is rather limited while most of us here are running custom cases.
It sounds like the boot menu we are referring to isn't really an options list for individual drives but only options to the default boot device. This is why programs like EasyBCD become an asset when you have no other options available.
It sounds like the bios they used is rather limited while most of us here are running custom cases. It sounds like the boot menu we are referring to isn't really an options list for individual drives but only options to the default boot device. This is why programs like EasyBCD become an asset when you have no other options available.
I think I understand now. The puter was designed to run Raid 0 or 1 off of the two SATA ports. So the BIOS is oriented around that even though I am using them as separate drives.
I have an SATA / ESATA PCI-e card with a free port that support a higher UDMA mode than the on-board SATA anyhow. I will try moving my second drive to it. I expect it will show up in my boot selection window then.
Well I can edit the BCD without easy BCD, but that is not an independent moot - they both have the same bootmgr and same system disk.
Like I said in the next year I am building a custom case you snob
Well this has been fruitful - I didn't think of using that pci-e SATA port before.
I have an SATA / ESATA PCI-e card with a free port that support a higher UDMA mode than the on-board SATA anyhow. I will try moving my second drive to it. I expect it will show up in my boot selection window then.
Well I can edit the BCD without easy BCD, but that is not an independent moot - they both have the same bootmgr and same system disk.
Like I said in the next year I am building a custom case you snob
Well this has been fruitful - I didn't think of using that pci-e SATA port before.
You should be able to convert the RAID to SATA in BIOS controller settings, or on the RAID pre-screen if it is there.
I wonder if the OP got his problem sorted? Sigh - maybe not.
So here are the results of my experiment. I hooked my second WD up to the SATA port on my PCI-E card and it appeared in the F12 boot selection menu and I could use it as the system disk to boot independently. The disk shows up as a SCSI disk and I loose the low acoustics BIOS setting as an unfortunate side effect.
But here was the whole purpose of this exercise - would my volume shadow copies be independent now and not cross-linked. The answer is NO. I started up VSS and enabled restore points for the second boot drive and the restore points from the other drive appear.
So, the only explanation I can think of is that VSS uses the disk signatures and not the logical drives letters. So when you clone, the signature of the disk you cloned becomes the signature used by VSS in the disk/system you cloned to. I don't think there is any way to undo it. Everything LOOKED normal in VSSADMIN, but I guess it would.
Anyhow, I guess the lesson is that cloned dual boots can be trouble - you may need to disable VSS on one of the systems if you run with both mounted.
- Gene
But here was the whole purpose of this exercise - would my volume shadow copies be independent now and not cross-linked. The answer is NO. I started up VSS and enabled restore points for the second boot drive and the restore points from the other drive appear.
So, the only explanation I can think of is that VSS uses the disk signatures and not the logical drives letters. So when you clone, the signature of the disk you cloned becomes the signature used by VSS in the disk/system you cloned to. I don't think there is any way to undo it. Everything LOOKED normal in VSSADMIN, but I guess it would.
Anyhow, I guess the lesson is that cloned dual boots can be trouble - you may need to disable VSS on one of the systems if you run with both mounted.
- Gene
Haven't heard anything yet! As far the bios setting knowing the make and model board for that model might help if found listed at the board manufacturer's site. Typically you can switch the drive modes to ide if the Raid option was enabled by default.
That may result in other problems however with the preinstall as it can with a custom clean install with your own 7 dvd. After the initial install of 7 on this build set at Native ide the switch to AHCI saw a few until returning back to the ide mode.
As far as calling up the boot device menu that was found much easier with Asus boards over other companies and as was seen on the new Gigabyte board now in use here you won't need a PS/2 keyboard or adapter to see the menu come right up.
When going to upgrade into a custom build you may want to look over the user manual closely at the manufacturer's site before ordering to see what that show for the section on the bios in the pdf download. That will point out the various settings seen for drive modes as well as other things.
As for seeing a dual boot where you edit the BCD with a clone or restored image using the system image option in 7 that will see the imaged drive made the only OS canceling out the first drive! I ended imaging the first with Acronis and then adding a new entry to get a dual boot between original and image to work.
That was all experimental when tried however. The restored image in the early tries however saw both drives as stand alones for use of the F12 option to select until making the mistake of adding in the new entry.
That may result in other problems however with the preinstall as it can with a custom clean install with your own 7 dvd. After the initial install of 7 on this build set at Native ide the switch to AHCI saw a few until returning back to the ide mode.
As far as calling up the boot device menu that was found much easier with Asus boards over other companies and as was seen on the new Gigabyte board now in use here you won't need a PS/2 keyboard or adapter to see the menu come right up.
When going to upgrade into a custom build you may want to look over the user manual closely at the manufacturer's site before ordering to see what that show for the section on the bios in the pdf download. That will point out the various settings seen for drive modes as well as other things.
As for seeing a dual boot where you edit the BCD with a clone or restored image using the system image option in 7 that will see the imaged drive made the only OS canceling out the first drive! I ended imaging the first with Acronis and then adding a new entry to get a dual boot between original and image to work.
That was all experimental when tried however. The restored image in the early tries however saw both drives as stand alones for use of the F12 option to select until making the mistake of adding in the new entry.
That is basically what I did with trueimage sector clone and add a new entry in the BCD.
Did you try restore points on them? Everything is fine AFAIK except the shadow copies and restores linked together.
Did you try restore points on them? Everything is fine AFAIK except the shadow copies and restores linked together.
At first I tried out the clone option found in the WD freebie version and tried to add that in and saw the clone boot but was able to load the default in safe mode to remove the second drive's entry. That was test #1 with the obvious results having seen a working clone but refused to allow the first drive's normal install to load normally by default.
The next test saw the system image created with the CP>Backup & Restore method which grabs the drive signature and duplicated "everything" including one element still unidentified that made the host drive unusable! Fortunately a full image had already been made ahead of time and had to be used!
The final attempt saw an image of the first with True Image and was restored to the second before adding the new entry in for that. Surprize! was the pleasant relief when the host HD didn't require a second restoration.
This is also points out the need for a "disaster recovery plan" whenever going to try something like this out. When adding a new drive in a clean install and restoration with the Windows Easy Tranfer tool once everything is installed fresh cleans up the lingering items left behind. Once everything is set a full image is still advised using the build in option found in 7 for any emergencies!
Fortunately I am able to recover everything in the event both OS drives end up being trashed by having those other backup drives storing a few images as well as the usual storage and backups and note "just in case of...?"!
The next test saw the system image created with the CP>Backup & Restore method which grabs the drive signature and duplicated "everything" including one element still unidentified that made the host drive unusable! Fortunately a full image had already been made ahead of time and had to be used!
The final attempt saw an image of the first with True Image and was restored to the second before adding the new entry in for that. Surprize! was the pleasant relief when the host HD didn't require a second restoration.
This is also points out the need for a "disaster recovery plan" whenever going to try something like this out. When adding a new drive in a clean install and restoration with the Windows Easy Tranfer tool once everything is installed fresh cleans up the lingering items left behind. Once everything is set a full image is still advised using the build in option found in 7 for any emergencies!
Fortunately I am able to recover everything in the event both OS drives end up being trashed by having those other backup drives storing a few images as well as the usual storage and backups and note "just in case of...?"!
Sorry if I missed it but were you given an option to change the drive letter while cloning?
What if drives have separate letters and are booted via BIOS?
What if drives have separate letters and are booted via BIOS?
The drive letters came out right for me, no need to change them while (sector by sector) cloning.
Disk 1(booted system) C: Disk 2 E:
Disk 1(E Disk 2(booted system) C:
Disk 1(booted system) C: Disk 2 E:
Disk 1(E
Disk 2(booted system) C: Ok just wanted to see if they were the same or different. Different makes no difference, looks like.
When using the clone option in the Acronis Disk Director that lists drives by make and model not by any logical drive letter. That's the one thing you have to keep in mind if you have more then two drives installed to start with.
You have to know which is Drive 1, 2, or 3 since Drive 1 may not be the first drive but the first on a second channel such as the Sata III drives here are on channels 4 and 5 but are seen as Disk 0 or 1 in the DM while being Drive 1 and 2 or 4 and 5 in a 3rd party app. I almost batch things up a few times on the new build here due to running into this one! greg
You have to know which is Drive 1, 2, or 3 since Drive 1 may not be the first drive but the first on a second channel such as the Sata III drives here are on channels 4 and 5 but are seen as Disk 0 or 1 in the DM while being Drive 1 and 2 or 4 and 5 in a 3rd party app. I almost batch things up a few times on the new build here due to running into this one! greg
�� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO The drive letters came out right for me, no need to change them while (sector by sector) cloning.
Disk 1(booted system) C: Disk 2 E:
Disk 1(E Disk 2(booted system) C:
Disk 1(booted system) C: Disk 2 E:
Disk 1(E
Disk 2(booted system) C:I tried this exercise some time ago.
2 1TB sata HDD with same image. Both working the same when independently plugged into 1st sata port (disk 0).
Connected one to sata port 1, one to (esata) port 3. Bios boot from port 3 ok then port 0 disk appeared to take over reporting OS errors. Both disks needed reimaging afterwards!
Of course BIOS only knows physical devices and it isn't until you hit the OS (presumably at bootmanager stage?) that logical drive letters mean anything.
I made no BCD changes and expected the same result as what I think GeneO is talking about.
There appears to be no problem with a BIOS directed boot with 2 different OSs. If you have to change the BCD is it really just a BIOS directed boot anyway?
The BCD store on any Vista or 7 machine is the actual boot configuration for the one or more OSs installed unless opting to add on another type of boot loader as with Windows/Linux or other OSs involved. A program like EasyBCD is the graphical gui type BCD editing program that will see drive letters used there while behind the scenes the BCD store itself is still looking hardware.
Note even when looking in the boot.ini file for XP you will see the same reference to device not logical drive letter there seeing the typical "rdisk(0 or 1 or 2)partition 1 or 2 or 3 or 4" depending on how many drives and partitions are present as far as which drive and primary the older version was installed onto.
As for selecting a drive or device when pressing the designated F key to bring up a boot device menu you will see the drive models under the particular catagory of drive or device selected being shown there. If you have two hard drives one WD and a Seagate you see WD model number or Seagate model number as the two options not whether they are C, D, E, F, etc..
Note even when looking in the boot.ini file for XP you will see the same reference to device not logical drive letter there seeing the typical "rdisk(0 or 1 or 2)partition 1 or 2 or 3 or 4" depending on how many drives and partitions are present as far as which drive and primary the older version was installed onto.
As for selecting a drive or device when pressing the designated F key to bring up a boot device menu you will see the drive models under the particular catagory of drive or device selected being shown there. If you have two hard drives one WD and a Seagate you see WD model number or Seagate model number as the two options not whether they are C, D, E, F, etc..
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Night Hawk The BCD store on any Vista or 7 machine is the actual boot configuration for the one or more OSs installed unless opting to add on another type of boot loader as with Windows/Linux or other OSs involved. A program like EasyBCD is the graphical gui type BCD editing program that will see drive letters used there while behind the scenes the BCD store itself is still looking hardware.
Note even when looking in the boot.ini file for XP you will see the same reference to device not logical drive letter there seeing the typical "rdisk(0 or 1 or 2)partition 1 or 2 or 3 or 4" depending on how many drives and partitions are present as far as which drive and primary the older version was installed onto.
As for selecting a drive or device when pressing the designated F key to bring up a boot device menu you will see the drive models under the particular catagory of drive or device selected being shown there. If you have two hard drives one WD and a Seagate you see WD model number or Seagate model number as the two options not whether they are C, D, E, F, etc..
Note even when looking in the boot.ini file for XP you will see the same reference to device not logical drive letter there seeing the typical "rdisk(0 or 1 or 2)partition 1 or 2 or 3 or 4" depending on how many drives and partitions are present as far as which drive and primary the older version was installed onto.
As for selecting a drive or device when pressing the designated F key to bring up a boot device menu you will see the drive models under the particular catagory of drive or device selected being shown there. If you have two hard drives one WD and a Seagate you see WD model number or Seagate model number as the two options not whether they are C, D, E, F, etc..
�� Quote: Originally Posted by mjf �� Quote: Originally Posted by Night Hawk The BCD store on any Vista or 7 machine is the actual boot configuration for the one or more OSs installed unless opting to add on another type of boot loader as with Windows/Linux or other OSs involved. A program like EasyBCD is the graphical gui type BCD editing program that will see drive letters used there while behind the scenes the BCD store itself is still looking hardware.
Note even when looking in the boot.ini file for XP you will see the same reference to device not logical drive letter there seeing the typical "rdisk(0 or 1 or 2)partition 1 or 2 or 3 or 4" depending on how many drives and partitions are present as far as which drive and primary the older version was installed onto.
As for selecting a drive or device when pressing the designated F key to bring up a boot device menu you will see the drive models under the particular catagory of drive or device selected being shown there. If you have two hard drives one WD and a Seagate you see WD model number or Seagate model number as the two options not whether they are C, D, E, F, etc..
Note even when looking in the boot.ini file for XP you will see the same reference to device not logical drive letter there seeing the typical "rdisk(0 or 1 or 2)partition 1 or 2 or 3 or 4" depending on how many drives and partitions are present as far as which drive and primary the older version was installed onto.
As for selecting a drive or device when pressing the designated F key to bring up a boot device menu you will see the drive models under the particular catagory of drive or device selected being shown there. If you have two hard drives one WD and a Seagate you see WD model number or Seagate model number as the two options not whether they are C, D, E, F, etc..
From there the mbr points to the boot loader and the entries in that for the drive and partition as well as the OS installed. It's when you first get into a BCD edit you start seeing "C:" or any other drive letter while in a command prompt. BCDEDIT - How to Use
Note this is also the case when booted live from a 7 install dvd or repair cd made up since you are still using the software method.
Night Hawk
It is humor!!! I tried to explain this to you a few days ago - post 65
What's on that 100MB partition? Can I delete it? (
1 2 3 ... Last Page)
"POST 65"
Hopefully the full Picture I'm confident that what I said earlier is correct except I left out one element of the picture and that is the Partition Boot Record which I believe is the first 16 sectors of the active partition. So the MBR passes control to the PBR which loads the boot manager on it's partition and so on.
So the boot sequence is:
BIOS --> MBR (inc partition table) at start of disk --> [ PBR (at start of active partition) --> Boot Manager (Using BCD) ] --> C:\windows\system32\winload.exe
[....] Key elements of 100MB system reserved for booting
Again here is the Hex of the MBR and the Hex of the first part of the PBR.
To get the PBR Hex I mounted a macrium image of the 100MB system reserved and opened it with a Hex editor.
Attached Thumbnails
It is humor!!! I tried to explain this to you a few days ago - post 65
What's on that 100MB partition? Can I delete it? (
1 2 3 ... Last Page)"POST 65"
Hopefully the full Picture I'm confident that what I said earlier is correct except I left out one element of the picture and that is the Partition Boot Record which I believe is the first 16 sectors of the active partition. So the MBR passes control to the PBR which loads the boot manager on it's partition and so on.
So the boot sequence is:
BIOS --> MBR (inc partition table) at start of disk --> [ PBR (at start of active partition) --> Boot Manager (Using BCD) ] --> C:\windows\system32\winload.exe
[....] Key elements of 100MB system reserved for booting
Again here is the Hex of the MBR and the Hex of the first part of the PBR.
To get the PBR Hex I mounted a macrium image of the 100MB system reserved and opened it with a Hex editor.
Attached Thumbnails
Can I borrow your hex editor for Halloween? 
I wonder if you can set that up in a dual boot?!
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Night Hawk I wonder if you can set that up in a dual boot?!
�� Quote: Originally Posted by mjf �� Quote: Originally Posted by Night Hawk I wonder if you can set that up in a dual boot?!
Hey Trailerman I hope you're still with us! This went way offtrack here!
We're still waiting to hear how you made out.
We're still waiting to hear how you made out.
Sorry guys - was away for a few days.
The more I read, the more terrified I become about trying this at all - once bitten twice shy I guess.
I don't mind using a BIOS switch to choose boot drive (the system in question is a Dell - so F12), but I don't have clean drives to work with. Because I'm now booting using a clone (on an otherwise clean drive) of an original which then refused to boot, I somehow need to try and find a way to reclone my clone back over my currupted original, which shares a drive with 2 other partitions (both of which I need to keep).
I do also have a 3rd drive in the system, which I can use to create a backup image to restore from, but I'm concerned about some suggestions that the only safe way to do this is to clone onto a clean (and preferably identical) drive.
I will try and wade through the extensive set of posts above and hope I've understood everything before I embark.
Jules
The more I read, the more terrified I become about trying this at all - once bitten twice shy I guess.
I don't mind using a BIOS switch to choose boot drive (the system in question is a Dell - so F12), but I don't have clean drives to work with. Because I'm now booting using a clone (on an otherwise clean drive) of an original which then refused to boot, I somehow need to try and find a way to reclone my clone back over my currupted original, which shares a drive with 2 other partitions (both of which I need to keep).
I do also have a 3rd drive in the system, which I can use to create a backup image to restore from, but I'm concerned about some suggestions that the only safe way to do this is to clone onto a clean (and preferably identical) drive.
I will try and wade through the extensive set of posts above and hope I've understood everything before I embark.
Jules
Plug back in the source HD alone, set as first HD to boot in BIOS. If it won't start any longer, then boot the Win7 DVD Repair console or Repair CD, click through to Recovery Tools list to run Startup Repair up to 3 separate times with reboots until Win7 starts. Startup Repair - Run 3 Separate Times
If it fails, make sure Win7 partition is marked Active and run Startup Repair again x3: Partition - Mark as Active
Once it starts, you can plug the other HD's back in, set the preferred one as first HD to boot, then boot the other one using one-time BIOS boot menu key given on first screen, in setup literature, or in your Manual which can be read on the Support Downloads webpage for your computer or mobo.
If it fails, make sure Win7 partition is marked Active and run Startup Repair again x3: Partition - Mark as Active
Once it starts, you can plug the other HD's back in, set the preferred one as first HD to boot, then boot the other one using one-time BIOS boot menu key given on first screen, in setup literature, or in your Manual which can be read on the Support Downloads webpage for your computer or mobo.
Here is a link I found useful. The did not do advice for a generalized BCD before cloning, but did afterward and it does work.
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
�� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO Here is a link I found useful. The did not do advice for a generalized BCD before cloning, but did afterward and it does work.
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
People who are unsure just need to realise that if you have the system reserved active partition it serves an important booting function and you can't simply delete it and walk away. How to incorporate it's function into the Boot partition and have "System, active, Boot.." in one partition has been done to death on this forum.
Can I suggest that if Gregrocker is willing we let him and him alone assist the OP with any further guidelines for this particular issue in order to bring it to a close.
�� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO Here is a link I found useful. The did not do advice for a generalized BCD before cloning, but did afterward and it does work.
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
Hello Gene.
There are other ways to create the 100MB SysResv boot partition; have you seen this; and it can be done with Windows own disk management, have a look at the second one.
System Reserved : Create for Dual Boot
Boot Windows 7 from a Logical Partition
�� Quote: Originally Posted by mjf �� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO Here is a link I found useful. The did not do advice for a generalized BCD before cloning, but did afterward and it does work.
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
People who are unsure just need to realise that if you have the system reserved active partition it serves an important booting function and you can't simply delete it and walk away. How to incorporate it's function into the Boot partition and have "System, active, Boot.." in one partition has been done to death on this forum.
Can I suggest that if Gregrocker is willing we let him and him alone assist the OP with any further guidelines for this particular issue in order to bring it to a close.
And since when did this become a fray? Those are fighting words (literally)
�� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO �� Quote: Originally Posted by mjf �� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO Here is a link I found useful. The did not do advice for a generalized BCD before cloning, but did afterward and it does work.
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
People who are unsure just need to realise that if you have the system reserved active partition it serves an important booting function and you can't simply delete it and walk away. How to incorporate it's function into the Boot partition and have "System, active, Boot.." in one partition has been done to death on this forum.
Can I suggest that if Gregrocker is willing we let him and him alone assist the OP with any further guidelines for this particular issue in order to bring it to a close.
"Can I suggest that if Gregrocker is willing we...."
If I was asking the question I would simply want an answer from whoever, not a saga (the thread is at page 7 already).
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Trailerman Sorry guys - was away for a few days.
The more I read, the more terrified I become about trying this at all - once bitten twice shy I guess.
I don't mind using a BIOS switch to choose boot drive (the system in question is a Dell - so F12), but I don't have clean drives to work with. Because I'm now booting using a clone (on an otherwise clean drive) of an original which then refused to boot, I somehow need to try and find a way to reclone my clone back over my currupted original, which shares a drive with 2 other partitions (both of which I need to keep).
I do also have a 3rd drive in the system, which I can use to create a backup image to restore from, but I'm concerned about some suggestions that the only safe way to do this is to clone onto a clean (and preferably identical) drive.
I will try and wade through the extensive set of posts above and hope I've understood everything before I embark.
Jules
The more I read, the more terrified I become about trying this at all - once bitten twice shy I guess.
I don't mind using a BIOS switch to choose boot drive (the system in question is a Dell - so F12), but I don't have clean drives to work with. Because I'm now booting using a clone (on an otherwise clean drive) of an original which then refused to boot, I somehow need to try and find a way to reclone my clone back over my currupted original, which shares a drive with 2 other partitions (both of which I need to keep).
I do also have a 3rd drive in the system, which I can use to create a backup image to restore from, but I'm concerned about some suggestions that the only safe way to do this is to clone onto a clean (and preferably identical) drive.
I will try and wade through the extensive set of posts above and hope I've understood everything before I embark.
Jules
First you would start fresh with the dedicated storage even if you need to wipe it clean to insure the best results. The second step is having the destinattion drive(new OS HD) installed as the second drive until cloning or seeing a working restoration of the image before seeing that made Disk 0.
The backup option in 7 will preserve everything including the 100mb and any other partitions on the source drive without worry. A second image even with Acronis free or full version regardless will allow you to mount the image as a second C drive for incremental backups and allowing you to delete as well as add more files to it.
If any problems are seen from cloning or imaging the last option would be the Windows Easy Transfer tool to restore files and settings following a clean install on the new OS drive. The important thing is getting the new drive up and running along having all your files backed up on a safe location.
The images attached here examine the "boot" folder seen on C following a prepartitioning and format of a drive seeing a fresh install of Windows compared to one not seeing that having the 100mb system reserved.
Two points:
First, I think I've flogged to death the case of the original OS volume failing to boot after I cloned it - all documented here. I have given up on that partition and am now looking to go about creating a new clone more 'scientifically' than I did last time.
Second, I have no issues with everybody throwing in their tuppence worth. It's clear that this is a complex area, and there are multiple approaches, all of which are equally valid and more or less suitable to specific cases. I'm just grateful for all the help.
My hope when starting this thread (aside from solving an issue I personally have to tackle) was to try and get a pool of information together which might serve as a resource for others. There is clearly a huge wealth of knowledge and experise on this forum, and there are no really thorough and concise guides on how to create a totally robust multi-booting environment using clones, at least not that I've found.
Thanks again for all the help. If I can wrap up some mixes quickly, today should be D-Day for the clone.
Jules
First, I think I've flogged to death the case of the original OS volume failing to boot after I cloned it - all documented here. I have given up on that partition and am now looking to go about creating a new clone more 'scientifically' than I did last time.
Second, I have no issues with everybody throwing in their tuppence worth. It's clear that this is a complex area, and there are multiple approaches, all of which are equally valid and more or less suitable to specific cases. I'm just grateful for all the help.
My hope when starting this thread (aside from solving an issue I personally have to tackle) was to try and get a pool of information together which might serve as a resource for others. There is clearly a huge wealth of knowledge and experise on this forum, and there are no really thorough and concise guides on how to create a totally robust multi-booting environment using clones, at least not that I've found.
Thanks again for all the help. If I can wrap up some mixes quickly, today should be D-Day for the clone.
Jules
Sorry guys, I know there are reams and reams of detail above on how this should be done (all of which is taken on board and I hope understood), but I still have some specific questions which I need some guidance on.
A screengrab of my disk management window is pasted below. It shows four drives:
Disk 0 - is my working Windows7 disk - one OS volume (Drive C) and a bunch of unallocated space. This was cloned from what is now Drive Z (Disk 2), but that process left Drive Z unbootable.
Disk 1 - is a data drive. I can use this to create backup images of my OS volume, which enables me to unplug OS drives whilst keeping my backup image available, for the purpose of restoring the clone to a different physical drive.
Disk 2 - contains my old corrupted OS Volume (now relabled Drive Z) and is where I would ideally create my clone, overwriting Drive Z. It also contains two other partitions which I need to retain, although they could be moved to Drive 0 if absolutely necessary. This disk presumably also contains its own MBR, as it was bootable prior to the last cloning operation.
Disk 3 - is not relevant for this exercise, but contains an old WinXP volume (Drive L), which I was using until a month or so ago. It therefore also has it's own MBR (I assume) as it has been a bootable drive in the past.
I realize this setup makes the cloning process more complex than in an ideal world. Therefore, please can I get some feedback specifically on the following points:
1. Is it safe or even possible to reliably carry out the cloning operation as proposed, at a partition rather than a physical drive level, given that I don't have clean drives to work with? I may as well know if I'm playing Russian roulette, and make the decision if I should buy a new drive and reorganise things?
2. My intention is to use Acronis to create an image backup of Drive C (my current OS volume), onto Disk 1, and then restore that image to what is currently Drive Z (which could be wiped first)? This could be done (I believe) with Disk 0 unplugged. Is this the correct approach?
3. As I am cloning a partition, NOT a physical drive, I have no option to clone the MBR. Does this render the plan unworkable, or does it not matter. Bear in mind that the target disk (disk 2) presumably has an existing MBR (?) and has a history of failing to boot - 'autochck not found' errors, followed by a blue screen. I am concerned that if I don't clone the MBR I will just be creating a new OS volume which is equally unbootable - what's the best way of tackling this?
If there was any chance of getting feedback specifically on these three points, I would be hugely grateful. I'm going to hold off proceeding until I hear back, because I think there are still some uncertainties here.
I'm grateful for all the help, and fully understand if the response is - "don't do it, it's not safe and it might not work".
Jules
A screengrab of my disk management window is pasted below. It shows four drives:
Disk 0 - is my working Windows7 disk - one OS volume (Drive C) and a bunch of unallocated space. This was cloned from what is now Drive Z (Disk 2), but that process left Drive Z unbootable.
Disk 1 - is a data drive. I can use this to create backup images of my OS volume, which enables me to unplug OS drives whilst keeping my backup image available, for the purpose of restoring the clone to a different physical drive.
Disk 2 - contains my old corrupted OS Volume (now relabled Drive Z) and is where I would ideally create my clone, overwriting Drive Z. It also contains two other partitions which I need to retain, although they could be moved to Drive 0 if absolutely necessary. This disk presumably also contains its own MBR, as it was bootable prior to the last cloning operation.
Disk 3 - is not relevant for this exercise, but contains an old WinXP volume (Drive L), which I was using until a month or so ago. It therefore also has it's own MBR (I assume) as it has been a bootable drive in the past.
I realize this setup makes the cloning process more complex than in an ideal world. Therefore, please can I get some feedback specifically on the following points:
1. Is it safe or even possible to reliably carry out the cloning operation as proposed, at a partition rather than a physical drive level, given that I don't have clean drives to work with? I may as well know if I'm playing Russian roulette, and make the decision if I should buy a new drive and reorganise things?
2. My intention is to use Acronis to create an image backup of Drive C (my current OS volume), onto Disk 1, and then restore that image to what is currently Drive Z (which could be wiped first)? This could be done (I believe) with Disk 0 unplugged. Is this the correct approach?
3. As I am cloning a partition, NOT a physical drive, I have no option to clone the MBR. Does this render the plan unworkable, or does it not matter. Bear in mind that the target disk (disk 2) presumably has an existing MBR (?) and has a history of failing to boot - 'autochck not found' errors, followed by a blue screen. I am concerned that if I don't clone the MBR I will just be creating a new OS volume which is equally unbootable - what's the best way of tackling this?
If there was any chance of getting feedback specifically on these three points, I would be hugely grateful. I'm going to hold off proceeding until I hear back, because I think there are still some uncertainties here.
I'm grateful for all the help, and fully understand if the response is - "don't do it, it's not safe and it might not work".
Jules
I explained in the previous thread that when your drive letter slips during cloning, it can only be corrected by using Paragon Rescue CD to change it back in the registry. Moving Win7 Partition to Another Drive
The best way to Dual boot with separate HD's is to set the preferred HD as first to boot in BIOS setup, then to boot the other HD tap the one-time BIOS Boot Menu key at bootup. In order to set this up, you'll need to mark Active any OS HD which is not currently System Active, unplug all other HD's while you run Startup Repair up to 3 separate times to write the System MBR to it. Then you can plug back in the other HD's and boot whichever via the BIOS.
DISK3 XP appears to have lost its bootability as it no longer is marked System Active. It may need to be repaired if you want to boot it again.
The best way to Dual boot with separate HD's is to set the preferred HD as first to boot in BIOS setup, then to boot the other HD tap the one-time BIOS Boot Menu key at bootup. In order to set this up, you'll need to mark Active any OS HD which is not currently System Active, unplug all other HD's while you run Startup Repair up to 3 separate times to write the System MBR to it. Then you can plug back in the other HD's and boot whichever via the BIOS.
DISK3 XP appears to have lost its bootability as it no longer is marked System Active. It may need to be repaired if you want to boot it again.
Greg, Bare Foot (thought I saw a post earlier but looks like it got deleted)
I really appreciate the responses. Reading between the lines, I'm understanding that the procedure I outline 2 posts above is basically ok, subject to possibly needing to rebuild the MBR on the disk with the new clone by running startup repair 3 times. Therefore I assume it's ok to work at a partition image (rather than a drive image) level, as proposed. I'm cool with the BIOS boot menu approach to dual booting.
Re. your point on drive letters, I did this successfully to get the current clone to work, by using a registry hack, which I presume is what Paragon does. Whilst on that subject, will Windows automatically assign C: to whichever partition it boots into, or do I need to take extra steps to ensure only one partition is given letter C?
Disk 3's OS partition is basically redundant Greg, but I take your point on making it system active if I ever need to use it again.
Cheers
Jules
I really appreciate the responses. Reading between the lines, I'm understanding that the procedure I outline 2 posts above is basically ok, subject to possibly needing to rebuild the MBR on the disk with the new clone by running startup repair 3 times. Therefore I assume it's ok to work at a partition image (rather than a drive image) level, as proposed. I'm cool with the BIOS boot menu approach to dual booting.
Re. your point on drive letters, I did this successfully to get the current clone to work, by using a registry hack, which I presume is what Paragon does. Whilst on that subject, will Windows automatically assign C: to whichever partition it boots into, or do I need to take extra steps to ensure only one partition is given letter C?
Disk 3's OS partition is basically redundant Greg, but I take your point on making it system active if I ever need to use it again.
Cheers
Jules
Disk #3's OS primary is already active as you can easily see with one look at the snipping you took from the DM. You'll find the option for marking that active in the 7 boot drive's DM greyed out. To see that working again you would need to set that up as the Disk #0 long enough to perform a factory restorary as the default drive and move it over one notch as your second OS drive.
Disk #1 would be better in the Disk #2 spot as your main storage device. As far as cloning or restoring a disk image for an OS drive if the original installation saw itself as C that would be the drive letter the clone or restored image would see when booting into that drive.
The option for everything there however would have been seeing a clean install of 7 on the new drive which would have also seen a fresh registry and no hidden problems to suddenly come up on you rather then trying to expand into the large amount of unallocated drive space from cloning from a 200gb onto a 500gb drive. The drive could easily end up being seen as "raw" if the partition table information is lost.
To illustrate a multiboot setup across multiple drives that worked during the testing stages of the 7 RCs I still had this one from last year showing the first two drives as stand alone installs with the first unplugged for the second drive's install of the 64bit RC and followed by the custom install of the 32bit on a 3rd drive. Note one 500gb Green Power drive had been replaced by the two 1tb GPs and a new tb Black edition just before the retail release.
The situation then was the 32bit installer not adding the second drive's RC into the changed boot options while having taken over as the default OS adding Disk #0's install there. The first drive still remained the boot drive. When inadvertently booting from the 64bit RC disk instead of the 32bit not knowing if a problem with detection was seen the startup repair (recovered) the second drive's RC and added that into the boot options.
Now removing one drive from the equation since you have four there:
Disk #0 = host/boot and default OS drive,
Disk #1 = OEM XP drive,
Disk #2 = Main storage(if planning to eventually remove original 7 drive) or source for clone.
Disk #3 = Second storage drive once clean install seen on host and WET Backup restored. (WET = Windows Easy Transfer)
Cloning drives as seen with businesses to identical drives not mixed sizes to save on costs and tech down time. The findings here when comparing full system images made and restored with the 7 option as well as with Macrium's Reflect and the free as well as full version of Acronis True Image saw the best and most reliable results when going to restore the host drive with the 7 Backup & Recovery option. And this is why the best option for having a reliable OS on the first drive and avoiding problems was the not so fast option of using the WET tool with a clean install.
As for the option to add the XP entry into the 7 BCD that wouldn't prevent selecting and booting into XP using the F key boot device menu to select the drive. You would need to back things up from that drive before the factory recovery option was used for XP however.
Disk #1 would be better in the Disk #2 spot as your main storage device. As far as cloning or restoring a disk image for an OS drive if the original installation saw itself as C that would be the drive letter the clone or restored image would see when booting into that drive.
The option for everything there however would have been seeing a clean install of 7 on the new drive which would have also seen a fresh registry and no hidden problems to suddenly come up on you rather then trying to expand into the large amount of unallocated drive space from cloning from a 200gb onto a 500gb drive. The drive could easily end up being seen as "raw" if the partition table information is lost.
To illustrate a multiboot setup across multiple drives that worked during the testing stages of the 7 RCs I still had this one from last year showing the first two drives as stand alone installs with the first unplugged for the second drive's install of the 64bit RC and followed by the custom install of the 32bit on a 3rd drive. Note one 500gb Green Power drive had been replaced by the two 1tb GPs and a new tb Black edition just before the retail release.
The situation then was the 32bit installer not adding the second drive's RC into the changed boot options while having taken over as the default OS adding Disk #0's install there. The first drive still remained the boot drive. When inadvertently booting from the 64bit RC disk instead of the 32bit not knowing if a problem with detection was seen the startup repair (recovered) the second drive's RC and added that into the boot options.
Now removing one drive from the equation since you have four there:
Disk #0 = host/boot and default OS drive,
Disk #1 = OEM XP drive,
Disk #2 = Main storage(if planning to eventually remove original 7 drive) or source for clone.
Disk #3 = Second storage drive once clean install seen on host and WET Backup restored. (WET = Windows Easy Transfer)
Cloning drives as seen with businesses to identical drives not mixed sizes to save on costs and tech down time. The findings here when comparing full system images made and restored with the 7 option as well as with Macrium's Reflect and the free as well as full version of Acronis True Image saw the best and most reliable results when going to restore the host drive with the 7 Backup & Recovery option. And this is why the best option for having a reliable OS on the first drive and avoiding problems was the not so fast option of using the WET tool with a clean install.
As for the option to add the XP entry into the 7 BCD that wouldn't prevent selecting and booting into XP using the F key boot device menu to select the drive. You would need to back things up from that drive before the factory recovery option was used for XP however.
Jules: Win7 will decide what drive letter it wants to be. There is nothing you can do to change it once installed that will not bork your System, except in the case where a cloning app offers to let you select the drive letter during reimaging.
Two quick questions:
1. Can you restore an Acronis image using Windows Easy Trasfer? IS there any reason this is better than using Acronis' own recovery environment (I presume they have a boot disk)?
2. Using the BIOS Boot approach to switching OS drives, will the other (unused) drive and its OS still be available to the system?
Jules
1. Can you restore an Acronis image using Windows Easy Trasfer? IS there any reason this is better than using Acronis' own recovery environment (I presume they have a boot disk)?
2. Using the BIOS Boot approach to switching OS drives, will the other (unused) drive and its OS still be available to the system?
Jules
First attempt failed:
1. Used Acronis True Image 2011 to create an image of my working Win7 partition, which I stored on my data drive (now Disk 2)
2. Shut down, unplugged my OS drive (Disk 0) and reshuffled the drive order so that my destination drive is Disk 1 and data disk is Disk 2 (as Night Hawk suggested).
3. Booted into Acronis recovery environment using bootable CD.
4. Worked through Recovery wizard to restore image to Disk 1, into now unallocated space at the start of the disk (Disk 1). Enabled MBR restore and Disk Signature copy in the options (this is the only bit I was unsure about)
5. Result: "Recover Operation Failed" error within a minute, and with no explanation or further details of what the problem is.
Any suggestions gratefully received.
I realize I used Acronis to recover, rather than the Win7 recovery DVD, but I figured this is what Acronis is designed for, and I'm more likeley to get support from them than from Microsoft.
I have a support case logged, and a post on their support forums - here we go again ....
Jules
1. Used Acronis True Image 2011 to create an image of my working Win7 partition, which I stored on my data drive (now Disk 2)
2. Shut down, unplugged my OS drive (Disk 0) and reshuffled the drive order so that my destination drive is Disk 1 and data disk is Disk 2 (as Night Hawk suggested).
3. Booted into Acronis recovery environment using bootable CD.
4. Worked through Recovery wizard to restore image to Disk 1, into now unallocated space at the start of the disk (Disk 1). Enabled MBR restore and Disk Signature copy in the options (this is the only bit I was unsure about)
5. Result: "Recover Operation Failed" error within a minute, and with no explanation or further details of what the problem is.
Any suggestions gratefully received.
I realize I used Acronis to recover, rather than the Win7 recovery DVD, but I figured this is what Acronis is designed for, and I'm more likeley to get support from them than from Microsoft.
I have a support case logged, and a post on their support forums - here we go again ....
Jules
I now also have a Disk Signature collision on the system, which has taken my destination disk offline. Although I can force it back online, my principal audio apps on the source drive are now crashing regularly.
Maybe I screwed up and missed some of the advice in the preceding 7 pages of posts, but I cannot believe this type of operation needs to be so complex and potentially destructive.
Maybe I screwed up and missed some of the advice in the preceding 7 pages of posts, but I cannot believe this type of operation needs to be so complex and potentially destructive.
Jules I've not heard of Acronis acting up in this way before.
Perhaps it's best to start over. System Restore your source drive to before the problems began there. Run sfc/ scannow as Admin to check system files. Post back if any problems persist.
Wipe the target drive using diskpart: SSD / HDD : Optimize for Windows Reinstallation
Now try the Acronis cloning function directly between the two drives using the Auto setting, so that it makes any partitioning differntial proportionate and rules out bad settings.
Perhaps it's best to start over. System Restore your source drive to before the problems began there. Run sfc/ scannow as Admin to check system files. Post back if any problems persist.
Wipe the target drive using diskpart: SSD / HDD : Optimize for Windows Reinstallation
Now try the Acronis cloning function directly between the two drives using the Auto setting, so that it makes any partitioning differntial proportionate and rules out bad settings.
Hi Greg
I think the app issues are caused by the Drive Signature conflict, because the source drive was unplugged when I did the recovery, so there's no way that could have been changed. Therefore I doubt system restore will make any difference.
I'll have to wait and see what Acronis say (so far no response).
If I ever manage to complete this operation, I'll post back with what happened and how it worked out.
Jules
I think the app issues are caused by the Drive Signature conflict, because the source drive was unplugged when I did the recovery, so there's no way that could have been changed. Therefore I doubt system restore will make any difference.
I'll have to wait and see what Acronis say (so far no response).
If I ever manage to complete this operation, I'll post back with what happened and how it worked out.
Jules
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Bare Foot Kid �� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO Here is a link I found useful. The did not do advice for a generalized BCD before cloning, but did afterward and it does work.
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
Hello Gene.
There are other ways to create the 100MB SysResv boot partition; have you seen this; and it can be done with Windows own disk management, have a look at the second one.
System Reserved : Create for Dual Boot
Boot Windows 7 from a Logical Partition
Cheers,
Gene
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Trailerman I now also have a Disk Signature collision on the system, which has taken my destination disk offline. Although I can force it back online, my principal audio apps on the source drive are now crashing regularly.
Maybe I screwed up and missed some of the advice in the preceding 7 pages of posts, but I cannot believe this type of operation needs to be so complex and potentially destructive.
Maybe I screwed up and missed some of the advice in the preceding 7 pages of posts, but I cannot believe this type of operation needs to be so complex and potentially destructive.
1. Don't clone the MBR
2. Do a sector level clone of the whole disk. You would need to save the data in the partitions you wish to keep, then recreate them and restore the data. When a new partition is created on your destination drive, it will get a new signature. or
3. Change the disk signature: http://www.howtohaven.com/system/cha...ignature.shtml. Though I don't think you would want to take this path - I believe you might then have to hack into the registry to change the signature there for the mounted device, but probably not - windows will probably see all of the partitions on the drive as new volumes without drive letters, and assign them letters.
- Gene
Hi Gene
The issue I have is a) the MBR on this drive is probably corrupt - I couldn't boot into it after I cloned FROM it to my current OS - so somehow that needs to be fixed, plus the posts above aren't totally clear on whether the MBR should be cloned or not. b) I'm told that some applications cause problems if they don't recognize the Disk Signature, hence why I copied it.
Clearly if I do it again, I won't copy the Disk signature, although that's already done. I'm truly grateful to everybody here for the guidance and suggestions, but the fact that this amount of information has still not resulted in an absolutely clear method for doing this relatively simple operation safely can only suggest that Windows OS'es just don't like doing this.
I hate to say it, (and I am anything but a Mac lover) but on my Mac Pro, I just clone the partition and select it - no MBR and Disk signature worries. It just works. On PC it seems the only way to do this safely is to start wiping disks or work only with identical hardware, which seems kind of anachronistic in the 21st century.
Sorry for the grumpy tone. After all the preparation and trying to get a clear and concise modus operandi, this has become a saga I could really have done without.
Jules
The issue I have is a) the MBR on this drive is probably corrupt - I couldn't boot into it after I cloned FROM it to my current OS - so somehow that needs to be fixed, plus the posts above aren't totally clear on whether the MBR should be cloned or not. b) I'm told that some applications cause problems if they don't recognize the Disk Signature, hence why I copied it.
Clearly if I do it again, I won't copy the Disk signature, although that's already done. I'm truly grateful to everybody here for the guidance and suggestions, but the fact that this amount of information has still not resulted in an absolutely clear method for doing this relatively simple operation safely can only suggest that Windows OS'es just don't like doing this.
I hate to say it, (and I am anything but a Mac lover) but on my Mac Pro, I just clone the partition and select it - no MBR and Disk signature worries. It just works. On PC it seems the only way to do this safely is to start wiping disks or work only with identical hardware, which seems kind of anachronistic in the 21st century.
Sorry for the grumpy tone. After all the preparation and trying to get a clear and concise modus operandi, this has become a saga I could really have done without.
Jules
�� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO �� Quote: Originally Posted by Bare Foot Kid �� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO Here is a link I found useful. The did not do advice for a generalized BCD before cloning, but did afterward and it does work.
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
Multibooters, Vista Dual and Multibooting - Cloning Vista
I also wonder if having a separate system and boot partition make a difference (i.e. installing windows 7 on an existing partition where boot and system are the same vs. reformatting and letting windows 7 install create a separate 100MB system partition and boot partition). I have the system=boot.
- Gene
Hello Gene.
There are other ways to create the 100MB SysResv boot partition; have you seen this; and it can be done with Windows own disk management, have a look at the second one.
System Reserved : Create for Dual Boot
Boot Windows 7 from a Logical Partition
Cheers,
Gene
I'm glad you find them useful; here's another interesting idea.
System Reserved : Multi Boot from Logicals'
�� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO �� Quote: Originally Posted by Trailerman I now also have a Disk Signature collision on the system, which has taken my destination disk offline. Although I can force it back online, my principal audio apps on the source drive are now crashing regularly.
Maybe I screwed up and missed some of the advice in the preceding 7 pages of posts, but I cannot believe this type of operation needs to be so complex and potentially destructive.
Maybe I screwed up and missed some of the advice in the preceding 7 pages of posts, but I cannot believe this type of operation needs to be so complex and potentially destructive.
1. Don't clone the MBR
2. Do a sector level clone of the whole disk. You would need to save the data in the partitions you wish to keep, then recreate them and restore the data. When a new partition is created on your destination drive, it will get a new signature. or
3. Change the disk signature: How to Change the Disk Signature of a Drive Without Losing Existing Data or Reformatting (howtohaven.com). Though I don't think you would want to take this path - I believe you might then have to hack into the registry to change the signature there for the mounted device, but probably not - windows will probably see all of the partitions on the drive as new volumes without drive letters, and assign them letters.
- Gene
"Remember my disclaimer above: I really don't know what I'm talking about here: do it at your own risk."
You should tread with extreme caution.
The disk signature is 4 bytes towards the end of the 512 byte MBR. In Windows 7 (& Vista I believe) it plays a much more significant role and is indeed an entry in the registry. Third party applications sometimes use it for authentication purposes as well.
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Trailerman Hi Gene
The issue I have is a) the MBR on this drive is probably corrupt - I couldn't boot into it after I cloned FROM it to my current OS - so somehow that needs to be fixed, plus the posts above aren't totally clear on whether the MBR should be cloned or not. b) I'm told that some applications cause problems if they don't recognize the Disk Signature, hence why I copied it.
Clearly if I do it again, I won't copy the Disk signature, although that's already done. I'm truly grateful to everybody here for the guidance and suggestions, but the fact that this amount of information has still not resulted in an absolutely clear method for doing this relatively simple operation safely can only suggest that Windows OS'es just don't like doing this.
I hate to say it, (and I am anything but a Mac lover) but on my Mac Pro, I just clone the partition and select it - no MBR and Disk signature worries. It just works. On PC it seems the only way to do this safely is to start wiping disks or work only with identical hardware, which seems kind of anachronistic in the 21st century.
Sorry for the grumpy tone. After all the preparation and trying to get a clear and concise modus operandi, this has become a saga I could really have done without.
Jules
The issue I have is a) the MBR on this drive is probably corrupt - I couldn't boot into it after I cloned FROM it to my current OS - so somehow that needs to be fixed, plus the posts above aren't totally clear on whether the MBR should be cloned or not. b) I'm told that some applications cause problems if they don't recognize the Disk Signature, hence why I copied it.
Clearly if I do it again, I won't copy the Disk signature, although that's already done. I'm truly grateful to everybody here for the guidance and suggestions, but the fact that this amount of information has still not resulted in an absolutely clear method for doing this relatively simple operation safely can only suggest that Windows OS'es just don't like doing this.
I hate to say it, (and I am anything but a Mac lover) but on my Mac Pro, I just clone the partition and select it - no MBR and Disk signature worries. It just works. On PC it seems the only way to do this safely is to start wiping disks or work only with identical hardware, which seems kind of anachronistic in the 21st century.
Sorry for the grumpy tone. After all the preparation and trying to get a clear and concise modus operandi, this has become a saga I could really have done without.
Jules
I don't think there are many applications (besides volume shadow copy and windows) that use the disk signature. When I did a sector level disk clone, it created a new signature and all of my applications run fine.
Most applications use the Disk volume id (which is distinct from the volume label and the signature) for licensing and the like, not the disk signature. The disk volume id can be the same for two disks, but not the signature as it gets associated with drive letters (and indirectly directory letters referencing the drive letters). In general when you clone an OS you want the volume ID unchanged to avoid potential licensing problems.
If you don;t copy the MBR, I expect you would need to do something like and MBR repair to get it operational. Never been there so I am unsure.
Don't blame you for being grumpy! Twas much simpler in XP (but I wouldn't go back)
Gene
Is there a reason you won't try cloning using the Acronis cloning function?
�� Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker Is there a reason you won't try cloning using the Acronis cloning function?
"This quote could be relevant to the discussion:
Source: "Acronis True Image WD Edition", 2000-2010, pp.48
When MBR recovery is chosen, the "Recover disk signature" box will appear in the bottom left corner at the next step. Recovering disk signature may be desirable due to the following reasons:
1. Acronis True Image WD Edition creates scheduled tasks using the signature of the source hard disk. If you recover the same disk signature, you don't need to re-create or edit the tasks created previously.
2. Some installed applications use disk signature for licensing and other purposes.
3. If you use Windows Restore Points, they will be lost when the disk signature is not recovered.
4. In addition, recovering disk signature allows to recover VSS snapshots used by Windows Vista and Windows 7's "Previous Versions" feature.
If the box is unselected, Acronis True Image WD Edition generates a new disk signature for the recovered drive. This may be needed when you use an image backup not for disaster recovery but for cloning your Windows Vista hard drive to another one. Trying to boot Windows after cloning with both drives connected will result in a problem. During Windows booting, its loader checks the disk signatures of all the connected drives, and if it finds two identical disk signatures, the loader changes the signature of the second disk, which would be the clone disk. Once this happens, the clone disk would not be able to boot up independently of the original disk, because the MountedDevices fields in the clone's registry reference the disk signature of the original disk, which will not be available if the original disk is disconnected."
The section of the same reference:
14.3.6 Cloning with Manual Partitions
may also be of interest
Source: "Acronis True Image WD Edition", 2000-2010, pp.48
When MBR recovery is chosen, the "Recover disk signature" box will appear in the bottom left corner at the next step. Recovering disk signature may be desirable due to the following reasons:
1. Acronis True Image WD Edition creates scheduled tasks using the signature of the source hard disk. If you recover the same disk signature, you don't need to re-create or edit the tasks created previously.
2. Some installed applications use disk signature for licensing and other purposes.
3. If you use Windows Restore Points, they will be lost when the disk signature is not recovered.
4. In addition, recovering disk signature allows to recover VSS snapshots used by Windows Vista and Windows 7's "Previous Versions" feature.
If the box is unselected, Acronis True Image WD Edition generates a new disk signature for the recovered drive. This may be needed when you use an image backup not for disaster recovery but for cloning your Windows Vista hard drive to another one. Trying to boot Windows after cloning with both drives connected will result in a problem. During Windows booting, its loader checks the disk signatures of all the connected drives, and if it finds two identical disk signatures, the loader changes the signature of the second disk, which would be the clone disk. Once this happens, the clone disk would not be able to boot up independently of the original disk, because the MountedDevices fields in the clone's registry reference the disk signature of the original disk, which will not be available if the original disk is disconnected."
The section of the same reference:
14.3.6 Cloning with Manual Partitions
may also be of interest
�� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO �� Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker Is there a reason you won't try cloning using the Acronis cloning function?
�� Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker �� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO �� Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker Is there a reason you won't try cloning using the Acronis cloning function?
Well since no one was interested in listening earlier I will repeat a few things here about dual booting when a drive image is restored onto a second drive. Acronis wasn't used to restore the source drive but to unpack an image of the first onto the second since restoring the full system image onto a second saw the second drive trash the first drive's ability to boot into 7.
Remember what I found that worked here was by "trial and error" only while restoring a full image made with the option seen in the 7 Backup & Restore to the 1st drive has worked flawlessly after numerous restorations. The dual boot with the second drive came about when Acronis placed the image of the first onto the second where no clash was seen when adding the new entry into the BCD.
Both options can easily see an image with all partitions and mbr information intact while Acronis clones and unpacks disk images onto secondary drives without errors most of the time. Note "most of the time"! I've had a few trials with that. The best move however was to start off with a clean install on the new drive and restoring a backup made of the user files and settings to avoid "headaches" starting fresh on the new 500gb.
Once everything is all set on the new host/boot drive you can created an image for restoration to that drive alone with the full system image feature found the most reliable. As for a dual boot with a second drive seeing an image of the first restored that's where the 3rd party program comes in to avoid the disk signature hassle.
(Gee I was glad I made that image with the 7 option when the first tests "trashed the works"!)
Acronis will easily see a full clone over to an identical drive as found here. If you were replacing one drive with an identical replacement there you go! For already having boot issues with the source drive? Not Good! With the new drive not matching the solution is as follows.
1)Use 3rd drive to store Windows Easy Transfer tool's backup of files and settings for your programs
2)isolate new host drive to see clean install of everything! (yes that will take time but works the best)
3)once new drive is set to go create your safe guard image for any emergency. Backup Complete Computer - Create an Image Backup
4)create a totally separate second image of new host for restoration on "test drive"! Note the word "test"! When using Acronis you can remain booted in the host drive's installation there and do other things while that image is being unpacked onto a second drive.
5)Test secondary drive's ability to boot on it's own once the image(Acronis) is on.
6)Once found that the drive is bootable you can add a boot entry with EasyBCD to select working in the test drive's restoration or load the default fresh 7 install.
7) Ability to edit or retrieve files from either drive image? 1) For image made by 7, System Image - Extract Files Using Disk Management
2)For image made by Acronis the "Tools & Utilities" section features the option for mounting an image it is used to create as a second C drive to be seen in Windows Explorer.
Remember what I found that worked here was by "trial and error" only while restoring a full image made with the option seen in the 7 Backup & Restore to the 1st drive has worked flawlessly after numerous restorations. The dual boot with the second drive came about when Acronis placed the image of the first onto the second where no clash was seen when adding the new entry into the BCD.
Both options can easily see an image with all partitions and mbr information intact while Acronis clones and unpacks disk images onto secondary drives without errors most of the time. Note "most of the time"! I've had a few trials with that. The best move however was to start off with a clean install on the new drive and restoring a backup made of the user files and settings to avoid "headaches" starting fresh on the new 500gb.
Once everything is all set on the new host/boot drive you can created an image for restoration to that drive alone with the full system image feature found the most reliable. As for a dual boot with a second drive seeing an image of the first restored that's where the 3rd party program comes in to avoid the disk signature hassle.
(Gee I was glad I made that image with the 7 option when the first tests "trashed the works"!)
Acronis will easily see a full clone over to an identical drive as found here. If you were replacing one drive with an identical replacement there you go! For already having boot issues with the source drive? Not Good! With the new drive not matching the solution is as follows.
1)Use 3rd drive to store Windows Easy Transfer tool's backup of files and settings for your programs
2)isolate new host drive to see clean install of everything! (yes that will take time but works the best)
3)once new drive is set to go create your safe guard image for any emergency. Backup Complete Computer - Create an Image Backup
4)create a totally separate second image of new host for restoration on "test drive"! Note the word "test"! When using Acronis you can remain booted in the host drive's installation there and do other things while that image is being unpacked onto a second drive.
5)Test secondary drive's ability to boot on it's own once the image(Acronis) is on.
6)Once found that the drive is bootable you can add a boot entry with EasyBCD to select working in the test drive's restoration or load the default fresh 7 install.
7) Ability to edit or retrieve files from either drive image? 1) For image made by 7, System Image - Extract Files Using Disk Management
2)For image made by Acronis the "Tools & Utilities" section features the option for mounting an image it is used to create as a second C drive to be seen in Windows Explorer.
Sorry for the lack of response - was away walking in the Lakes the last 4 days.
Will digest the posts above and then decide how to proceed.
Greg - the reason I created an image and then restored was because this was the recommended course of action in a couple of posts. I also felt that breaking the operation down into 2 discreet stages (as opposed to a single cloning operation) increased the chance of success and at very least the ease with which reasons for failure could be diagnosed.
Night Hawk - I do listen, and I do read your posts. I don't always find them terribly easy to be follow, I have to confess, but I do read them, and I have taken all of you valuable input on board. I'll continue to do so as I try and resolve the current situation.
Jules
Will digest the posts above and then decide how to proceed.
Greg - the reason I created an image and then restored was because this was the recommended course of action in a couple of posts. I also felt that breaking the operation down into 2 discreet stages (as opposed to a single cloning operation) increased the chance of success and at very least the ease with which reasons for failure could be diagnosed.
Night Hawk - I do listen, and I do read your posts. I don't always find them terribly easy to be follow, I have to confess, but I do read them, and I have taken all of you valuable input on board. I'll continue to do so as I try and resolve the current situation.
Jules
�� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO �� Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker �� Quote: Originally Posted by GeneO I think he wanted to preserve some of the partitions on the drive he is cloning to. Acronis clone only does complete disks.
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Trailerman Sorry for the lack of response - was away walking in the Lakes the last 4 days.
Will digest the posts above and then decide how to proceed.
Greg - the reason I created an image and then restored was because this was the recommended course of action in a couple of posts. I also felt that breaking the operation down into 2 discreet stages (as opposed to a single cloning operation) increased the chance of success and at very least the ease with which reasons for failure could be diagnosed.
Night Hawk - I do listen, and I do read your posts. I don't always find them terribly easy to be follow, I have to confess, but I do read them, and I have taken all of you valuable input on board. I'll continue to do so as I try and resolve the current situation.
Jules
Will digest the posts above and then decide how to proceed.
Greg - the reason I created an image and then restored was because this was the recommended course of action in a couple of posts. I also felt that breaking the operation down into 2 discreet stages (as opposed to a single cloning operation) increased the chance of success and at very least the ease with which reasons for failure could be diagnosed.
Night Hawk - I do listen, and I do read your posts. I don't always find them terribly easy to be follow, I have to confess, but I do read them, and I have taken all of you valuable input on board. I'll continue to do so as I try and resolve the current situation.
Jules
You'll have a few of those moments when something doesn't work if you decide to try any of that! When cloning or restoring images there's never any 100% sure fire solution always guaranteed to work. One of the first images made with the full version of Acronis failed to restore the host drive here on one occasion where it had to see the 7 option's image restored. Fortunately one was made with that first.
It doesn't bring the drive signature along with it when creating an image of one drive for use on another making it the choice for seeing this type of dual boot. As far as the live cd recovery option that failed to even see the pair of Sata III drives installed along with the imaged stored them making that option obsolete.
�� Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker Is there a reason you won't try cloning using the Acronis cloning function?
Hi Greg
Can I just clarify what you're advising here?
I was under the impression that your previous advice was always to unplug the original drive when creating clones of OS partitions, in order to avoid the sacred original becoming compromised in any way.
Just so I'm clear, are you suggesting that I should actually clone direct from one drive to the other, which obvioulsy will mean I need both drives attached during the cloning process? I'm happy to give that a go, if that's what you're suggesting, but it seems to conflict with what I've been told previously.
Many thanks
Jules
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Night Hawk It doesn't bring the drive signature along with it when creating an image of one drive for use on another making it the choice for seeing this type of dual boot. As far as the live cd recovery option that failed to even see the pair of Sata III drives installed along with the imaged stored them making that option obsolete.
Many thanks
Jules
I am currently in the process of copying the other partitions on my destination disk, onto a different drive, so I can wipe this drive and make sure no disk errors or other issues are in play.
Can anyone advise on the best way of wiping the disk and MBR on this drive (preferably without a low level format - last time I did this it took days) and then verifying there are no errors? Is it best to create one big partition and then run chkdsk?
After that I will retry restoring the backed up image of my source OS volume. If that fails I'll do a clean Win7 install and then retry restoring the backed up image. I'm assuming any image restore/clone operation I perform should be WITHOUT MBR or disk signatures being copied, but any confirmation of this would be helpful.
After that I will try and set up a dual boot, either using the F12 boot key or Wiindows7's dual boot capabilities, which worked fine a few weeks ago when I was dual booting between Windows7 and XP.
Jules
Can anyone advise on the best way of wiping the disk and MBR on this drive (preferably without a low level format - last time I did this it took days) and then verifying there are no errors? Is it best to create one big partition and then run chkdsk?
After that I will retry restoring the backed up image of my source OS volume. If that fails I'll do a clean Win7 install and then retry restoring the backed up image. I'm assuming any image restore/clone operation I perform should be WITHOUT MBR or disk signatures being copied, but any confirmation of this would be helpful.
After that I will try and set up a dual boot, either using the F12 boot key or Wiindows7's dual boot capabilities, which worked fine a few weeks ago when I was dual booting between Windows7 and XP.
Jules
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Trailerman �� Quote: Originally Posted by Night Hawk It doesn't bring the drive signature along with it when creating an image of one drive for use on another making it the choice for seeing this type of dual boot. As far as the live cd recovery option that failed to even see the pair of Sata III drives installed along with the imaged stored them making that option obsolete.
Many thanks
Jules
Sorry MJF - you're absolutely right, I missed that reference.
I'm now wiping the destination disk and will try restoring without the disk signature.
Jules
I'm now wiping the destination disk and will try restoring without the disk signature.
Jules
You can use the Win7 DVD to wipe the HD. Use Clean All command: SSD / HDD : Optimize for Windows Reinstallation
You can also use free Partition Wizard bootable CD Wipe function.,
Writing one set of zeroes takes about an hour per 320gb.
You can also use free Partition Wizard bootable CD Wipe function.,
Writing one set of zeroes takes about an hour per 320gb.
Thanks Greg
Wiping and running chkdsk didn't solve the problem unfortunately. When I retried the image restore I still got 'Recover Opearation Failed' even though this time I wasn't restoring the MBR or disk signature.
I may now try the direct cloning route you suggested.
Jules
Wiping and running chkdsk didn't solve the problem unfortunately. When I retried the image restore I still got 'Recover Opearation Failed' even though this time I wasn't restoring the MBR or disk signature.
I may now try the direct cloning route you suggested.
Jules
I would use the auto setting unless you've got to make changes to partition sizes.
It will adjust everything proportionately to take HD size differences into account.
Works very well.
If not, then test the HD using maker's diag/repair full CD scan.
It will adjust everything proportionately to take HD size differences into account.
Works very well.
If not, then test the HD using maker's diag/repair full CD scan.
You wouldn't have had any need to wipe the new drive by either a direct clone between the 200gb source drive and the new 500gb or restoring an image made of the first. For the option of creating an image of a drive you are replacing you would need the mbr/boot information as part of the package to insure the destination drive is bootable as a stand alone OS drive.
The advise I have to repeat is that of recommending a clean install on the new drive from the start keeping the 200gb online until the new one is situated the way you want it with all programs and settings back on. From there you create a new full system image in order to be able to restore the entire system in one shot if needed.
The option to create a second image with Acronis would be for duplication of the new 500gb clean install seen there. That would avoid trashing the 500gb drive's clean install overriding that due to the disk signature id the 7 option adds while Acronis apparently doesn't.
Remember the key phrase for any "test environment" I tried to emphasize was "do at your own risk" since there is no 100% sure fire method at work when considering a dual boot like this. This is why you first needed to see a full image of the new host drive made up first in case of any .....
The advise I have to repeat is that of recommending a clean install on the new drive from the start keeping the 200gb online until the new one is situated the way you want it with all programs and settings back on. From there you create a new full system image in order to be able to restore the entire system in one shot if needed.
The option to create a second image with Acronis would be for duplication of the new 500gb clean install seen there. That would avoid trashing the 500gb drive's clean install overriding that due to the disk signature id the 7 option adds while Acronis apparently doesn't.
Remember the key phrase for any "test environment" I tried to emphasize was "do at your own risk" since there is no 100% sure fire method at work when considering a dual boot like this. This is why you first needed to see a full image of the new host drive made up first in case of any .....
Hi Night Hawk
The reason I wiped the drive is because every time I have tried to restore an image to it, Acronis has failed, and the log shows 'MFT Bitmap corrupt'. Acronis tech support have suggested that there might be issues with the disk, so I moved the other patitions onto another drive, reformatted, and ran chkdsk /f. No errors were found.
This has not resolved any of the problems. I have a backed up image which is fine and has been validated, but I am unable to restore it to my destination disk. I've tried using Acronis' recovery environment and from within Windows 7. Neither works, both still report a corrupt MFT bitmap (whatever that is).
I'm at a loss. I'm now going to try and look into converting the backup image so that I can then try and restore it using Windows 7 startup disk. After that I guess I have to assume there is an issue with the hardware and buy a new drive.
I realize I am not quite following the course of action you have suggested, but I would really hope that Acronis should be able to handle this relatively simple operation on it's own, without having to first install a clean version of Windows - that's kind of the whole point of this application.
Jules
The reason I wiped the drive is because every time I have tried to restore an image to it, Acronis has failed, and the log shows 'MFT Bitmap corrupt'. Acronis tech support have suggested that there might be issues with the disk, so I moved the other patitions onto another drive, reformatted, and ran chkdsk /f. No errors were found.
This has not resolved any of the problems. I have a backed up image which is fine and has been validated, but I am unable to restore it to my destination disk. I've tried using Acronis' recovery environment and from within Windows 7. Neither works, both still report a corrupt MFT bitmap (whatever that is).
I'm at a loss. I'm now going to try and look into converting the backup image so that I can then try and restore it using Windows 7 startup disk. After that I guess I have to assume there is an issue with the hardware and buy a new drive.
I realize I am not quite following the course of action you have suggested, but I would really hope that Acronis should be able to handle this relatively simple operation on it's own, without having to first install a clean version of Windows - that's kind of the whole point of this application.
Jules
�� Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker I would use the auto setting unless you've got to make changes to partition sizes.
It will adjust everything proportionately to take HD size differences into account.
Works very well.
If not, then test the HD using maker's diag/repair full CD scan.
It will adjust everything proportionately to take HD size differences into account.
Works very well.
If not, then test the HD using maker's diag/repair full CD scan.
Every operation which involves writing to the destination drive gives me the same error, whether I run it in Windows or from the Acronis startup CD, which seems to relate to a corrupt MFT bitmap. Reformatting the drive and running chkdsk hasn't fixed anything or thrown up any errors, so I'm currently running Western Digital's drive checker to see if it finds anything. If it does I'll buy a new disk. If it doesn't it's back to the drawing board and trying to find a solution which doesn't use Acronis.
Jules
If you're referring to WD Lifeguard diag/repair CD, it can actually repair problems to return a failing drive to service.
Combine it's diagnostics with running again Disk Check, if necessary from the booted Win7 DVD Command line - press Shift F10 at first screen.
Combine it's diagnostics with running again Disk Check, if necessary from the booted Win7 DVD Command line - press Shift F10 at first screen.
If a drive is too far gone and brand new RMA it! The LifeGuard tools can only do so much as well as a retail program for restoring drives called HD Regenerator. But even these are good for repair of bad sectors not mechanical issues like a slapping armature.
The options for cloning and restoring images were originally intended for duplication on identical hardwares. When working with two different sizes as well as different makes of drives you can run right into problems from the start. As I was saying before I use Acronis for secondary drives having run into problems restoring the source drive requiring a second restore effort with a full system image made by 7.
The idea of first starting off with a clean install on a brand new drive is to avoid any carry over problems since you are not working with a pair of identical drives. When using the clone option in the free WD version of Acronis to clone to the identical second drive here all went well showing the program does the job for what it was intended for.
Likewise an image made from a clean install once everything is on with the backup in 7 will easily see that restored to the source drive. For the idea tried with a dual boot across two identical drives Acronis turned out simply being one solution lacking the first drive's id tag it would seem.
But this was all done with everything already backed up with a working image to use to restore the main drive if any problems came up as a "do at you own risk" type project. In your situation there however you first want to see the new drive up and running well and backed before trying out any more advanced custom setups that can get complicated rather fast.
The options for cloning and restoring images were originally intended for duplication on identical hardwares. When working with two different sizes as well as different makes of drives you can run right into problems from the start. As I was saying before I use Acronis for secondary drives having run into problems restoring the source drive requiring a second restore effort with a full system image made by 7.
The idea of first starting off with a clean install on a brand new drive is to avoid any carry over problems since you are not working with a pair of identical drives. When using the clone option in the free WD version of Acronis to clone to the identical second drive here all went well showing the program does the job for what it was intended for.
Likewise an image made from a clean install once everything is on with the backup in 7 will easily see that restored to the source drive. For the idea tried with a dual boot across two identical drives Acronis turned out simply being one solution lacking the first drive's id tag it would seem.
But this was all done with everything already backed up with a working image to use to restore the main drive if any problems came up as a "do at you own risk" type project. In your situation there however you first want to see the new drive up and running well and backed before trying out any more advanced custom setups that can get complicated rather fast.
Many thanks as ever guys.
The weird thing is that the drive shows no errors in chkdsk (I've run it with every option I know of enabled), or in Acronis' own disk checker, or in Lifeguard's tests - basic or extended. All pass with flying colours. I'm currently writing zeros with Lifeguard, but although it's been running overnight it still has another 9 hours to go.
At the back of my mind, I have this nagging feeling that there's abvsolutely nothing wrong with the drive (as all the tests seem to suggest) but that there is perhaps an issue with Acronis, or some low level driver issue. I'm on my third day of studio down-time now so I'm fully comitted to getting this resolved pretty urgently.
I'm ordering a replacement drive today anyhow, and will most likley end up using that, assuming there are no further issues.
Just so I'm absolutely clear, and assuming I try and continue to work with Acronis, can you perhaps advise me on the following:
1. I'm working with different hardware of different sizes, and restoring/cloning only 1 partition (the OS partition). I also want to keep both OS volumes in the system in order to dual boot. Should I or should I not clone or restore the MBR?
2. Acronis gives the user the option of selecting the drive letter of the newly created destination partition. Should I leave this blank, should I choose C (my source OS partition letter) or choose a different available drive letter?
3. Assuming I'm working now with clean destination hardware (and starting to get a little desperate), is Acronis still the best medium for cloning, or would I be better doing a clean Win7 install, and then doing a Windows 7 system image and restore? If the latter, is there anything in particular I shoudl be aware of, or can I just follow the Win7 help?
We have to be near the end-game here guys, so I can only thank you for sticking with me this far.
Jules
The weird thing is that the drive shows no errors in chkdsk (I've run it with every option I know of enabled), or in Acronis' own disk checker, or in Lifeguard's tests - basic or extended. All pass with flying colours. I'm currently writing zeros with Lifeguard, but although it's been running overnight it still has another 9 hours to go.
At the back of my mind, I have this nagging feeling that there's abvsolutely nothing wrong with the drive (as all the tests seem to suggest) but that there is perhaps an issue with Acronis, or some low level driver issue. I'm on my third day of studio down-time now so I'm fully comitted to getting this resolved pretty urgently.
I'm ordering a replacement drive today anyhow, and will most likley end up using that, assuming there are no further issues.
Just so I'm absolutely clear, and assuming I try and continue to work with Acronis, can you perhaps advise me on the following:
1. I'm working with different hardware of different sizes, and restoring/cloning only 1 partition (the OS partition). I also want to keep both OS volumes in the system in order to dual boot. Should I or should I not clone or restore the MBR?
2. Acronis gives the user the option of selecting the drive letter of the newly created destination partition. Should I leave this blank, should I choose C (my source OS partition letter) or choose a different available drive letter?
3. Assuming I'm working now with clean destination hardware (and starting to get a little desperate), is Acronis still the best medium for cloning, or would I be better doing a clean Win7 install, and then doing a Windows 7 system image and restore? If the latter, is there anything in particular I shoudl be aware of, or can I just follow the Win7 help?
We have to be near the end-game here guys, so I can only thank you for sticking with me this far.
Jules
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Trailerman Hi Night Hawk
The reason I wiped the drive is because every time I have tried to restore an image to it, Acronis has failed, and the log shows 'MFT Bitmap corrupt'. Acronis tech support have suggested that there might be issues with the disk, so I moved the other patitions onto another drive, reformatted, and ran chkdsk /f. No errors were found.
This has not resolved any of the problems. I have a backed up image which is fine and has been validated, but I am unable to restore it to my destination disk. I've tried using Acronis' recovery environment and from within Windows 7. Neither works, both still report a corrupt MFT bitmap (whatever that is).
I'm at a loss. I'm now going to try and look into converting the backup image so that I can then try and restore it using Windows 7 startup disk. After that I guess I have to assume there is an issue with the hardware and buy a new drive.
I realize I am not quite following the course of action you have suggested, but I would really hope that Acronis should be able to handle this relatively simple operation on it's own, without having to first install a clean version of Windows - that's kind of the whole point of this application.
Jules
The reason I wiped the drive is because every time I have tried to restore an image to it, Acronis has failed, and the log shows 'MFT Bitmap corrupt'. Acronis tech support have suggested that there might be issues with the disk, so I moved the other patitions onto another drive, reformatted, and ran chkdsk /f. No errors were found.
This has not resolved any of the problems. I have a backed up image which is fine and has been validated, but I am unable to restore it to my destination disk. I've tried using Acronis' recovery environment and from within Windows 7. Neither works, both still report a corrupt MFT bitmap (whatever that is).
I'm at a loss. I'm now going to try and look into converting the backup image so that I can then try and restore it using Windows 7 startup disk. After that I guess I have to assume there is an issue with the hardware and buy a new drive.
I realize I am not quite following the course of action you have suggested, but I would really hope that Acronis should be able to handle this relatively simple operation on it's own, without having to first install a clean version of Windows - that's kind of the whole point of this application.
Jules
Been away from this thread for awhile. Isn't Acronis also cloning your MFT?
You might want to run chkdisk on the disk you are trying to clone by marking the files system dirty and rebooting. If chkdsk finds a problem and fixes it, try cloning again.
Gene
Hi Gene and thanks for your response.
I have no idea, to be honest. I didn't even know what the MFT was, until I started running into this issue (still don't really).
Acronis has backed up my OS partition (along with MBR) and gives me the option to restore with or without MBR and disk signature. I've tried all permutations and every one gives me the same corrupt MFT error, whether run from the Acronis recovery environment or Windows 7.
I'm unclear on whether the MFT corruption is on the source drive or the destination drive - I've run a bunch of tests on the destination and cannot find any issues, so maybe it's in the backed up volume ...? That said, I've also validated the backup without issue.
I'm currently writing zeros to the destination drive and have also oprdered a replacement (it was out of warranty). After that I will try a new backup with 'ignore bad sectors' enabled (Acronis' latest suggestion), and after that I'll have to give up on Acronis and find another way.
If you had any ideas I'm happy to try them - I can't do anything until I have this resolved so it's priority numero uno for me.
Thanks again
Jules
I have no idea, to be honest. I didn't even know what the MFT was, until I started running into this issue (still don't really).
Acronis has backed up my OS partition (along with MBR) and gives me the option to restore with or without MBR and disk signature. I've tried all permutations and every one gives me the same corrupt MFT error, whether run from the Acronis recovery environment or Windows 7.
I'm unclear on whether the MFT corruption is on the source drive or the destination drive - I've run a bunch of tests on the destination and cannot find any issues, so maybe it's in the backed up volume ...? That said, I've also validated the backup without issue.
I'm currently writing zeros to the destination drive and have also oprdered a replacement (it was out of warranty). After that I will try a new backup with 'ignore bad sectors' enabled (Acronis' latest suggestion), and after that I'll have to give up on Acronis and find another way.
If you had any ideas I'm happy to try them - I can't do anything until I have this resolved so it's priority numero uno for me.
Thanks again
Jules
If it fails again, I'd cut my losses and clean reinstall, then be sure to save a backup image after it is set up and running as you like but before corruptions starts creeping in.
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Trailerman Hi Gene and thanks for your response.
I have no idea, to be honest. I didn't even know what the MFT was, until I started running into this issue (still don't really).
Acronis has backed up my OS partition (along with MBR) and gives me the option to restore with or without MBR and disk signature. I've tried all permutations and every one gives me the same corrupt MFT error, whether run from the Acronis recovery environment or Windows 7.
I'm unclear on whether the MFT corruption is on the source drive or the destination drive - I've run a bunch of tests on the destination and cannot find any issues, so maybe it's in the backed up volume ...? That said, I've also validated the backup without issue.
I'm currently writing zeros to the destination drive and have also oprdered a replacement (it was out of warranty). After that I will try a new backup with 'ignore bad sectors' enabled (Acronis' latest suggestion), and after that I'll have to give up on Acronis and find another way.
If you had any ideas I'm happy to try them - I can't do anything until I have this resolved so it's priority numero uno for me.
Thanks again
Jules
I have no idea, to be honest. I didn't even know what the MFT was, until I started running into this issue (still don't really).
Acronis has backed up my OS partition (along with MBR) and gives me the option to restore with or without MBR and disk signature. I've tried all permutations and every one gives me the same corrupt MFT error, whether run from the Acronis recovery environment or Windows 7.
I'm unclear on whether the MFT corruption is on the source drive or the destination drive - I've run a bunch of tests on the destination and cannot find any issues, so maybe it's in the backed up volume ...? That said, I've also validated the backup without issue.
I'm currently writing zeros to the destination drive and have also oprdered a replacement (it was out of warranty). After that I will try a new backup with 'ignore bad sectors' enabled (Acronis' latest suggestion), and after that I'll have to give up on Acronis and find another way.
If you had any ideas I'm happy to try them - I can't do anything until I have this resolved so it's priority numero uno for me.
Thanks again
Jules
When you clone with true image, it will clone the MFT as well. I expect a partition level backup will do the same, and true image will check the MFT and error out if it detects corruption on restore. Marking the file system you are cloning dirty (with the commandline fsutil utility) then rebooting or just running chkdsk at boot time on the source disk you want to clone will fix minor corruptions and may get you over this hump
I believe True image has the option of running chkdsk on the source drive before cloning. It is recommended you do this.
Gene
Many thanks Gene - all totally clear and understood.
Can I perhaps beg your help on my other final two queries:
1. I'm working with different hardware of different sizes, and restoring/cloning only 1 partition (the OS partition). I also want to keep both OS volumes in the system in order to dual boot. Should I or should I not clone or restore the MBR?
2. Acronis gives the user the option of selecting the drive letter of the newly created destination partition. Should I leave this blank, should I choose C (my source OS partition letter) or choose a different available drive letter?
I know this has been covered before, but I've never been entirely clear on the best option in this specific scenario.
I have just run chkdsk from a command prompt on the source drive, and it did report something in the MFT, so I am going to try a partition clone again now using Acronis. These are the last two uncertainties before I dive back in.
Jules
Can I perhaps beg your help on my other final two queries:
1. I'm working with different hardware of different sizes, and restoring/cloning only 1 partition (the OS partition). I also want to keep both OS volumes in the system in order to dual boot. Should I or should I not clone or restore the MBR?
2. Acronis gives the user the option of selecting the drive letter of the newly created destination partition. Should I leave this blank, should I choose C (my source OS partition letter) or choose a different available drive letter?
I know this has been covered before, but I've never been entirely clear on the best option in this specific scenario.
I have just run chkdsk from a command prompt on the source drive, and it did report something in the MFT, so I am going to try a partition clone again now using Acronis. These are the last two uncertainties before I dive back in.
Jules
�� Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker If it fails again, I'd cut my losses and clean reinstall, then be sure to save a backup image after it is set up and running as you like but before corruptions starts creeping in.
Agreed.
If the next attempt fails, that's what I'll do.
If anybody could just clarify whether or not I should clone/restore the MBR, and if I should assign a drive letter to the cloned volume (and whether it should be the same as my existing OS volume), I'd be most grateful
Jules
If the next attempt fails, that's what I'll do.
If anybody could just clarify whether or not I should clone/restore the MBR, and if I should assign a drive letter to the cloned volume (and whether it should be the same as my existing OS volume), I'd be most grateful
Jules
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Trailerman Many thanks Gene - all totally clear and understood.
Can I perhaps beg your help on my other final two queries:
1. I'm working with different hardware of different sizes, and restoring/cloning only 1 partition (the OS partition). I also want to keep both OS volumes in the system in order to dual boot. Should I or should I not clone or restore the MBR?
2. Acronis gives the user the option of selecting the drive letter of the newly created destination partition. Should I leave this blank, should I choose C (my source OS partition letter) or choose a different available drive letter?
I know this has been covered before, but I've never been entirely clear on the best option in this specific scenario.
I have just run chkdsk from a command prompt on the source drive, and it did report something in the MFT, so I am going to try a partition clone again now using Acronis. These are the last two uncertainties before I dive back in.
Jules
Can I perhaps beg your help on my other final two queries:
1. I'm working with different hardware of different sizes, and restoring/cloning only 1 partition (the OS partition). I also want to keep both OS volumes in the system in order to dual boot. Should I or should I not clone or restore the MBR?
2. Acronis gives the user the option of selecting the drive letter of the newly created destination partition. Should I leave this blank, should I choose C (my source OS partition letter) or choose a different available drive letter?
I know this has been covered before, but I've never been entirely clear on the best option in this specific scenario.
I have just run chkdsk from a command prompt on the source drive, and it did report something in the MFT, so I am going to try a partition clone again now using Acronis. These are the last two uncertainties before I dive back in.
Jules
I think the destination drive letter is how it will appear in your current boot so you could not specify C. I think that it will boot up to C when you boot to that device. Again I am unsure of what exactly TIH means in this case. I see if I can find out later.
- Gene
�� Quote: Originally Posted by mjf "This quote could be relevant to the discussion:
Source: "Acronis True Image WD Edition", 2000-2010, pp.48
When MBR recovery is chosen, the "Recover disk signature" box will appear in the bottom left corner at the next step. Recovering disk signature may be desirable due to the following reasons:
1. Acronis True Image WD Edition creates scheduled tasks using the signature of the source hard disk. If you recover the same disk signature, you don't need to re-create or edit the tasks created previously.
2. Some installed applications use disk signature for licensing and other purposes.
3. If you use Windows Restore Points, they will be lost when the disk signature is not recovered.
4. In addition, recovering disk signature allows to recover VSS snapshots used by Windows Vista and Windows 7's "Previous Versions" feature.
If the box is unselected, Acronis True Image WD Edition generates a new disk signature for the recovered drive. This may be needed when you use an image backup not for disaster recovery but for cloning your Windows Vista hard drive to another one. Trying to boot Windows after cloning with both drives connected will result in a problem. During Windows booting, its loader checks the disk signatures of all the connected drives, and if it finds two identical disk signatures, the loader changes the signature of the second disk, which would be the clone disk. Once this happens, the clone disk would not be able to boot up independently of the original disk, because the MountedDevices fields in the clone's registry reference the disk signature of the original disk, which will not be available if the original disk is disconnected."
The section of the same reference:
14.3.6 Cloning with Manual Partitions
may also be of interest
Source: "Acronis True Image WD Edition", 2000-2010, pp.48
When MBR recovery is chosen, the "Recover disk signature" box will appear in the bottom left corner at the next step. Recovering disk signature may be desirable due to the following reasons:
1. Acronis True Image WD Edition creates scheduled tasks using the signature of the source hard disk. If you recover the same disk signature, you don't need to re-create or edit the tasks created previously.
2. Some installed applications use disk signature for licensing and other purposes.
3. If you use Windows Restore Points, they will be lost when the disk signature is not recovered.
4. In addition, recovering disk signature allows to recover VSS snapshots used by Windows Vista and Windows 7's "Previous Versions" feature.
If the box is unselected, Acronis True Image WD Edition generates a new disk signature for the recovered drive. This may be needed when you use an image backup not for disaster recovery but for cloning your Windows Vista hard drive to another one. Trying to boot Windows after cloning with both drives connected will result in a problem. During Windows booting, its loader checks the disk signatures of all the connected drives, and if it finds two identical disk signatures, the loader changes the signature of the second disk, which would be the clone disk. Once this happens, the clone disk would not be able to boot up independently of the original disk, because the MountedDevices fields in the clone's registry reference the disk signature of the original disk, which will not be available if the original disk is disconnected."
The section of the same reference:
14.3.6 Cloning with Manual Partitions
may also be of interest
So you might like(???) to retain the MBR but not the disk signature.
�� Quote: Originally Posted by Trailerman Many thanks Gene - all totally clear and understood.
Can I perhaps beg your help on my other final two queries:
1. I'm working with different hardware of different sizes, and restoring/cloning only 1 partition (the OS partition). I also want to keep both OS volumes in the system in order to dual boot. Should I or should I not clone or restore the MBR?
2. Acronis gives the user the option of selecting the drive letter of the newly created destination partition. Should I leave this blank, should I choose C (my source OS partition letter) or choose a different available drive letter?
I know this has been covered before, but I've never been entirely clear on the best option in this specific scenario.
I have just run chkdsk from a command prompt on the source drive, and it did report something in the MFT, so I am going to try a partition clone again now using Acronis. These are the last two uncertainties before I dive back in.
Jules
Can I perhaps beg your help on my other final two queries:
1. I'm working with different hardware of different sizes, and restoring/cloning only 1 partition (the OS partition). I also want to keep both OS volumes in the system in order to dual boot. Should I or should I not clone or restore the MBR?
2. Acronis gives the user the option of selecting the drive letter of the newly created destination partition. Should I leave this blank, should I choose C (my source OS partition letter) or choose a different available drive letter?
I know this has been covered before, but I've never been entirely clear on the best option in this specific scenario.
I have just run chkdsk from a command prompt on the source drive, and it did report something in the MFT, so I am going to try a partition clone again now using Acronis. These are the last two uncertainties before I dive back in.
Jules
1) When performing a direct clone everything was cloned equaling the entire drive and the boot information as well. That's how businesses tend to this. But note they do this across identical hardwares which can make all the difference in seeing working results.
When using the clone option here with the WF freebie that was to the exact make and model which saw immediate results. Once one factor changes the ratio of success rates is lowered to some extent.
2)When going to select the destination Acronis will wipe the entire drive before restoring any image onto it. The cloning option will assume the same that the entire destination drive is available and will be reserved. Between identical drives the cloned partition will take up the same amount of space on the destination drive.
3)The best option was what I was pointing to in the last reply about starting fresh with the new drive due to the differences and seeing images made from that. You wouldn't be running into the same complications working with two identical drives as far as any dual boot setups using anything discussed on this thread.
Besides working with a matched pair you still will want to backup the new main drive from the start. Having the extra drives here is what makes that possible leaving room for multiple drive images.
With the two storage drives each one sees a full image of the main drive here while the second one for storing images is also where the images made by Acronis are kept. So far the images made with the 7 backup feature have been restored numerous times while Acronis saw a few failed restorations on the first attempt.
That was with different images where the second attempt would succeed showing any 3rd party software can still have it's own problems and why the 7 backup option is preferred for maintaining the system. The rest is a gambit! or "great experiment"! and how it has to be treated. But that's how you learn how fast things can trip up on you as well!
What do you mean by direct clone? I performed a sector level clone of my entire disk with True Image WD Edition TIH 10 and TIH 2011 and the cloned disk had a different disk signature in each case. TIH cloning probably uses the disk-signature cof the new partition is created for the cloned image.
Jules, please, please check your system disk before creating any more image copies:. In a command window with administrator privilege:
fsutil dirty set C:
Where I assume C: is the drive you are "cloning". Then reboot and let windows check and fix the filesystem with chkdsk as it starts up.
- Gene
- Gene
Jules, please, please check your system disk before creating any more image copies:. In a command window with administrator privilege:
fsutil dirty set C:
Where I assume C: is the drive you are "cloning". Then reboot and let windows check and fix the filesystem with chkdsk as it starts up.
- Gene
- Gene
A direct clone works as far as seeing the second identical drive replace the first source drive as a stand alone device. For setting up a dual boot an image of the first was made by Acronis including the mbr information and restored onto the second. From there the new boot entry could be added into the source drive's BCD store seeing a working dual boot.
When first having restored an image made with the 7 backup option the unique disk id that the MS tool made wouldn't allow for any dual boot. The restored image then became the default single OS making the original installation unbootable. That's why I stated earlier this is all a "trial and error do at your own risk" process. It's nothing recommended for the novice user!
When first having restored an image made with the 7 backup option the unique disk id that the MS tool made wouldn't allow for any dual boot. The restored image then became the default single OS making the original installation unbootable. That's why I stated earlier this is all a "trial and error do at your own risk" process. It's nothing recommended for the novice user!
Well when I clone my disk image with TIH, and I mean clone as in their lingo and menus, it is NOT an exact image - everything is except the disk signature. It is bootable and everything is identical except for the boot signature. It can replace the first but the signature is different. I can dual boot or BIOS boot the cloned disk with no problem. This says to me that the sector by sector clone is basically the MBR copied except for the disk-signature, which is generated new.
- Gene
- Gene
With the MS tool in particular and as expected the installation on a particular drive is considered unique and provided a specific id tag for restoration to that same drive. That's how goes since that is a licensed installation being preserved when using the MS option included in 7.
As for 3rd party softwares they are written to be universal except for the free WD and Seagate versions of Acronis being intended for use on one of those two brands of drives in particular and provided free as a custom benefit. But also works for seeing a working dual boot set up with the original drive by not having the same constraints as far as the unique hardware id and won't end up claiming itself as the default and only OS when added into the source drive's boot options.
The testing on this being done here was mainly for seeing which method of backup would prove to be the most reliable as well as whether or not the dual boot idea would work. The practicality however diminishes rather quickly however since you can generally find better uses for the additional drive space once your main drive is backed such as with a full system image.
Dual booting is mostly used for 1)keeping an older version running for older programs that won't run on the newer and 2) for a look at other OSs while still keeping the default OS(Windows 7 naturally ) maintained. The second drive is used mainly for trying out various setups as well as running beta releases until the next version's betas are first seen which will then take up time there.
The one thing to note about dual boots is that they often end up being very temporary to start with. Once you are too accustomed to the main drive's OS the need for the second fades away or you may want something else newer on for a look saying good bye to the present set up.
As for 3rd party softwares they are written to be universal except for the free WD and Seagate versions of Acronis being intended for use on one of those two brands of drives in particular and provided free as a custom benefit. But also works for seeing a working dual boot set up with the original drive by not having the same constraints as far as the unique hardware id and won't end up claiming itself as the default and only OS when added into the source drive's boot options.
The testing on this being done here was mainly for seeing which method of backup would prove to be the most reliable as well as whether or not the dual boot idea would work. The practicality however diminishes rather quickly however since you can generally find better uses for the additional drive space once your main drive is backed such as with a full system image.
Dual booting is mostly used for 1)keeping an older version running for older programs that won't run on the newer and 2) for a look at other OSs while still keeping the default OS(Windows 7 naturally
) maintained. The second drive is used mainly for trying out various setups as well as running beta releases until the next version's betas are first seen which will then take up time there.The one thing to note about dual boots is that they often end up being very temporary to start with. Once you are too accustomed to the main drive's OS the need for the second fades away or you may want something else newer on for a look saying good bye to the present set up.
Well I disagree with the usefulness of a dual boot system with the same OS. It is a good warm backup solution. Most people are too narrow minded, don't grasp that or recognize the advantage it has over backups or mirroring, or are not skilled enough to set it up. For those people it fades away. Me, I update my clone OS and other software on it every few weeks and use Microsoft Synctoy to sync my data to it (100s of GB of photo images, etc) as a scheduled task every night. I have been doing this for years and t works well and doesn't have some of the the limitations of raid or backups. My data is also synced periodically to external disks.
And I have cloned a drive with the TIH 10 and 2011 with the same results - the disk signature is the only part of the drive that isn't cloned as far as I can tell.
But this isn't helping Jules.
And I have cloned a drive with the TIH 10 and 2011 with the same results - the disk signature is the only part of the drive that isn't cloned as far as I can tell.
But this isn't helping Jules.
One of the main reasons besides the flexibility for having an identical second OS drive beside for testing as well as looking at dual booting is any possible hardware fail of the main drive. There I can restore an image made until eventually seeing another clean install at some point which is not uncommon.
It does preserve the software purchased however which won't always allow continous reinstalls rather then the need to buy the same versions of the same programs over and over. The actual fast and reliable way of seeing any dual boot setup is not restoring images but clean installs on each drive.
Here everything is already covered on one drive alone as far as softwares and running several VMs to look at other OSs. Anything on the second drive is merely a temporary option.
It does preserve the software purchased however which won't always allow continous reinstalls rather then the need to buy the same versions of the same programs over and over. The actual fast and reliable way of seeing any dual boot setup is not restoring images but clean installs on each drive.
Here everything is already covered on one drive alone as far as softwares and running several VMs to look at other OSs. Anything on the second drive is merely a temporary option.
Success!!
The disk repair activity on the source drive seems to have fixed the issues Acronis was having restoring or cloning the OS volume. Chkdsk and fsutil seem to have done the trick. Clearly my assumption that MFT errors whilst restoring suggested a faulty destination drive cost a load of time and extra frustration.
So here's what's been done:
1. I created a new backup of the source volume using Acronis.
2. I restored it (without the MBR) onto my newly fromatted destination drive, using Acronis from within Windows.
3. I shut down and disconnected the original source drive (to avoid booting issues on the first run).
4. I booted and used F12 to select the new boot drive - this failed, presumably because I had not copied the MBR (the boot drive selector simply froze when I tried to select the new OS drive).
5. I reconnected the old OS drive and rebooted into Windows.
6. I copied the MBR (on its own - Acronis lets you do this) onto the new destination drive.
7. I shut down, disconnected the old OS drive and rebooted, and again selected the new OS drive.
8. This time it gave me a boot error - 'Boot selection failed because a required device is inaccessible'.
9. I ran the Win7 startup CD and Startup Repair 3 times (you see - I do read these posts!).
10. I then booted into the cloned OS no problem.
11. I reconnected my original OS drive and rebooted, and selected the original OS - no problems apart from a Windows authentication warning which allowed me to re-authenticate without issue.
12. Rebooted again and selected the new volume (with both OS drives present in the system) - again booted into the cloned OS no problem.
Every time I reboot, the unused OS volume is relabelled as drive H:, and from what I can see there is no cross-linking between operating systems. In short everything looks good.
From here, I should hopefully be able to run a simple clone (or backup/restore) of my working OS volume, over the backup volume (without MBR), in order to keep both versions of Windows syncronised.
Can I please offer a final big "thank you!" to everyone for all the help and support. We got there in the end - and it only took 13 pages!
Jules
The disk repair activity on the source drive seems to have fixed the issues Acronis was having restoring or cloning the OS volume. Chkdsk and fsutil seem to have done the trick. Clearly my assumption that MFT errors whilst restoring suggested a faulty destination drive cost a load of time and extra frustration.
So here's what's been done:
1. I created a new backup of the source volume using Acronis.
2. I restored it (without the MBR) onto my newly fromatted destination drive, using Acronis from within Windows.
3. I shut down and disconnected the original source drive (to avoid booting issues on the first run).
4. I booted and used F12 to select the new boot drive - this failed, presumably because I had not copied the MBR (the boot drive selector simply froze when I tried to select the new OS drive).
5. I reconnected the old OS drive and rebooted into Windows.
6. I copied the MBR (on its own - Acronis lets you do this) onto the new destination drive.
7. I shut down, disconnected the old OS drive and rebooted, and again selected the new OS drive.
8. This time it gave me a boot error - 'Boot selection failed because a required device is inaccessible'.
9. I ran the Win7 startup CD and Startup Repair 3 times (you see - I do read these posts!).
10. I then booted into the cloned OS no problem.
11. I reconnected my original OS drive and rebooted, and selected the original OS - no problems apart from a Windows authentication warning which allowed me to re-authenticate without issue.
12. Rebooted again and selected the new volume (with both OS drives present in the system) - again booted into the cloned OS no problem.
Every time I reboot, the unused OS volume is relabelled as drive H:, and from what I can see there is no cross-linking between operating systems. In short everything looks good.
From here, I should hopefully be able to run a simple clone (or backup/restore) of my working OS volume, over the backup volume (without MBR), in order to keep both versions of Windows syncronised.
Can I please offer a final big "thank you!" to everyone for all the help and support. We got there in the end - and it only took 13 pages!
Jules
great news Jules!
Gene
Gene
Glad to hear the good news! Now that you have the new drive OSed and running use the option in 7 for creating a full image to store on another drive in case you ever need to restore.
That should take about 100gb or more so store that on the 3rd drive you have there. With that you can keep the mbr info as well as the entire C volume intact and restore at any time. With a second image made by Acronis you can use the Utility & Tools section to see the image mounted for incremental backups for any new files added.
Note the images here where the image made of the previous Vista installation was mounted and accessible.
Now that you have the new drive OSed and running use the option in 7 for creating a full image to store on another drive in case you ever need to restore. That should take about 100gb or more so store that on the 3rd drive you have there. With that you can keep the mbr info as well as the entire C volume intact and restore at any time. With a second image made by Acronis you can use the Utility & Tools section to see the image mounted for incremental backups for any new files added.
Note the images here where the image made of the previous Vista installation was mounted and accessible.
�� Quote: Originally Posted by mjf "This quote could be relevant to the discussion:
Source: "Acronis True Image WD Edition", 2000-2010, pp.48
When MBR recovery is chosen, the "Recover disk signature" box will appear in the bottom left corner at the next step. Recovering disk signature may be desirable due to the following reasons:
1. Acronis True Image WD Edition creates scheduled tasks using the signature of the source hard disk. If you recover the same disk signature, you don't need to re-create or edit the tasks created previously.
2. Some installed applications use disk signature for licensing and other purposes.
3. If you use Windows Restore Points, they will be lost when the disk signature is not recovered.
4. In addition, recovering disk signature allows to recover VSS snapshots used by Windows Vista and Windows 7's "Previous Versions" feature.
If the box is unselected, Acronis True Image WD Edition generates a new disk signature for the recovered drive. This may be needed when you use an image backup not for disaster recovery but for cloning your Windows Vista hard drive to another one. Trying to boot Windows after cloning with both drives connected will result in a problem. During Windows booting, its loader checks the disk signatures of all the connected drives, and if it finds two identical disk signatures, the loader changes the signature of the second disk, which would be the clone disk. Once this happens, the clone disk would not be able to boot up independently of the original disk, because the MountedDevices fields in the clone's registry reference the disk signature of the original disk, which will not be available if the original disk is disconnected."
The section of the same reference:
14.3.6 Cloning with Manual Partitions
may also be of interest
Source: "Acronis True Image WD Edition", 2000-2010, pp.48
When MBR recovery is chosen, the "Recover disk signature" box will appear in the bottom left corner at the next step. Recovering disk signature may be desirable due to the following reasons:
1. Acronis True Image WD Edition creates scheduled tasks using the signature of the source hard disk. If you recover the same disk signature, you don't need to re-create or edit the tasks created previously.
2. Some installed applications use disk signature for licensing and other purposes.
3. If you use Windows Restore Points, they will be lost when the disk signature is not recovered.
4. In addition, recovering disk signature allows to recover VSS snapshots used by Windows Vista and Windows 7's "Previous Versions" feature.
If the box is unselected, Acronis True Image WD Edition generates a new disk signature for the recovered drive. This may be needed when you use an image backup not for disaster recovery but for cloning your Windows Vista hard drive to another one. Trying to boot Windows after cloning with both drives connected will result in a problem. During Windows booting, its loader checks the disk signatures of all the connected drives, and if it finds two identical disk signatures, the loader changes the signature of the second disk, which would be the clone disk. Once this happens, the clone disk would not be able to boot up independently of the original disk, because the MountedDevices fields in the clone's registry reference the disk signature of the original disk, which will not be available if the original disk is disconnected."
The section of the same reference:
14.3.6 Cloning with Manual Partitions
may also be of interest
If indeed item #3 suggests that the RESTORE PTS can be preserved how do I make sure the disk signature is transferred identically?
I will also create a new thread to be sure that someone will view my ??'s.
It is a very old thread! Contributors will be flagged so I'm responding.
I think my main comments related to disk signatures. I have system system restore turned off on my SSD and rely exclusively on system images. Some years ago I found system restore unreliable.
I also use Macrium Reflect for system imaging and don't know if a system image restore will maintain "restore points". I'm also not sure about the case with cloning. As I have indicated it isn't an issue for me but someone else may care to comment.
You shouldn't have a problem with disk signatures using system imaging. The disk signature is stored as 4 bytes in the Master Boot Record (MBR) which will be replaced by the original when you perform a system image restore unless you go out of your way not too.
If you want more responses a new thread is a good idea.
I think my main comments related to disk signatures. I have system system restore turned off on my SSD and rely exclusively on system images. Some years ago I found system restore unreliable.
I also use Macrium Reflect for system imaging and don't know if a system image restore will maintain "restore points". I'm also not sure about the case with cloning. As I have indicated it isn't an issue for me but someone else may care to comment.
You shouldn't have a problem with disk signatures using system imaging. The disk signature is stored as 4 bytes in the Master Boot Record (MBR) which will be replaced by the original when you perform a system image restore unless you go out of your way not too.
If you want more responses a new thread is a good idea.
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